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Mt. Gox CEO Karpeles refuses travel to U.S. for questioning

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Re: Mt. Gox CEO Karpeles refuses travel to U.S. for questioning

#51
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary: he's asking for bankruptcy protection from US Courts. US Courts can use bankruptcy law to protect you from your creditors. But if he refuses to comply with the Courts, then why should get get any bankruptcy protection?

But if he refuses to comply with the Courts Who said he refuses to comply with the courts? He's opposing a filing made by the plaintiffs. The court has not even ruled on the filing (which is merely a request from the Plaintiffs for the court to order). Deposition by video conference is common. Alternatively, he's offered to meet them in Taiwan. The guy can be guilty of whatever, but to paint him negatively because he…

1. He borrowed money from various US Institutions.

2. He has failed to return that money. Furthermore, he claims he cannot repay the money back and requests Bankruptcy protection

The Plaintiffs are in their right to try and get their money back. You don't just borrow millions of dollars and lose it all. Actually, you're allowed to do that in the US as long as you file Bankruptcy protection and listen to court requests and make an honest effort to repay as much of the money back. Its one of the reasons why the US is good for businesses, Bankruptcy law reduces the risks businesses make in regards to losing money / paying creditors.

It is okay to fail in the US... but only if you properly document your failures and make an honest effort to repay what you owe.

However, that is not what he has done. He's hiding out in Taiwan thinking there is some government conspiracy against him. On the contrary, US Laws are relatively forgiving. Hell, he may have multiple layers of legal defenses: if he properly created a Limited-liability corporation, his personal wealth will remain uneffected. Currently, he is NOT responsible for paying back the millions upon millions of dollars that he should be responsible for.

But that is only because of Bankruptcy protection. The US Courts and US Law protects you from creditors in this situation.

The Texas Court is protecting him from creditors currently. He does NOT have to pay all the money back, so long as the courts are on his side. However, the Texas Courts are complaining because this man is utterly ridiculous and ignorant on how the US Court system works. He is biting the hand that feeds him, so to speak.

In fact, it is quite unfair that the US Law treats businesses with such leniency. Student Loans evade bankruptcy protection for example. Nevertheless, if Karpeles plays his cards right, he will not have to pay back his loans. But he has to work with the Texas court for that kind of protection. It is only fair.

And remember, this isn't the "Federal Government" giving him this protection, it is the State of Texas. The Texas Court is asking for him to enter Texas. I'm not from that state, but I imagine that Texas has more respect for people who actually put forth the effort to appear in person in court.

Anything less is rather disrespectful to the Judge.

Re: Mt. Gox CEO Karpeles refuses travel to U.S. for questioning

#53

Remember when the U.S. was the "shining beacon"? Where someone coming into questioning couldn't be held indefinitely as a "material witness"? Or to first have all assets seized and then assigned a terrible attorney because of insolvency? When it would not be a stupid move to submit to questioning on U.S. soil? Yesh, that's what I thought.

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Re: Mt. Gox CEO Karpeles refuses travel to U.S. for questioning

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, somehow, I'm not seeing any reason to believe that the people suing Mt.Gox for fraud are in league with a government plot against Karpeles. Mt.Gox sought bankruptcy protection in Japan, and then in the US (tied to the Japanese process). People with claims in the US against Mt.Gox, as is fairly routine in bankruptcy cases where there are active claims, sought to have Karpeles testimony as a representative of the…

Except there is no particular reason why Karpeles actually needs to be physically present to provide his testimony, or for the corporation's designated representative in court to be a specific individual rather than an attorney hired for that purpose. I am not one who believes that physical custody of a witness is either necessary or sufficient to obtain truthful statements from him. I already find some of the tradit…

> Except there is no particular reason why Karpeles actually needs to be physically present to provide his testimony

Whether or not you believe that it is necessary, it is a routine demand in lawsuits, not evidence of some special government conspiracy to arrest Karpeles.

> or for the corporation's designated representative in court to be a specific individual rather than an attorney hired for that purpose.

This isn't about a "corporation's designated representative", its about a witness with first-hand knowledge of relevant facts. The corporation's designated representative will be a lawyer hired for the purpose, but they obviously are not a suitable witness.

> I am not one who believes that physical custody of a witness is either necessary or sufficient to obtain truthful statements from him.

Whether you believe that or not is irrelevant to what can reasonably be concluded from the fact of someone asking for it in a context where it is completely normal without any special conspiracy aimed at arrest.

Yes, if the world was usually run on your personal preferences, then this might be an unusual request that justifies some kind of conspiratorial conclusion. But in the real world we actually live in, it is not.

Re: Mt. Gox CEO Karpeles refuses travel to U.S. for questioning

#55
post #14

As a US citizen, if I lived outside the US and was summoned back for "questioning" by adverse parties, there's almost no reason I can imagine going. If that's truly all they want, then there's no reason it needs to be done in person. Depositions can be conducted remotely in many (though not all) jurisdictions.

I wonder how many folks out there agree with you in this case but not with say Julian Assange.

Apples to oranges. This is a civil proceeding relating to a bankruptcy while Sweden issued a warrant for Assange's arrest.

From wikipedia:

"Ecuadorian officials also suggested that Swedish authorities could question Assange at the embassy.[186][187] The prosecutor had already explained that Assange was not wanted "merely to assist with our enquiries," but for "the purpose of conducting criminal proceedings"—that is, to be arrested, charged, and tried."

Re: Mt. Gox CEO Karpeles refuses travel to U.S. for questioning

#56
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if he refuses to comply with the Courts Who said he refuses to comply with the courts? He's opposing a filing made by the plaintiffs. The court has not even ruled on the filing (which is merely a request from the Plaintiffs for the court to order). Deposition by video conference is common. Alternatively, he's offered to meet them in Taiwan. The guy can be guilty of whatever, but to paint him negatively because he…

1. He borrowed money from various US Institutions. 2. He has failed to return that money. Furthermore, he claims he cannot repay the money back and requests Bankruptcy protection The Plaintiffs are in their right to try and get their money back. You don't just borrow millions of dollars and lose it all. Actually, you're allowed to do that in the US as long as you file Bankruptcy protection and listen to court request…

> And remember, this isn't the "Federal Government" giving him this protection, it is the State of Texas.

No, its the Federal judiciary. The particular bankruptcy court happens to be located in Texas (US Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Texas). People often confuse federal courts located in a state with state courts, but they are not at all the same thing, and have nothing to do with the state government.

Re: Mt. Gox CEO Karpeles refuses travel to U.S. for questioning

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. He borrowed money from various US Institutions. 2. He has failed to return that money. Furthermore, he claims he cannot repay the money back and requests Bankruptcy protection The Plaintiffs are in their right to try and get their money back. You don't just borrow millions of dollars and lose it all. Actually, you're allowed to do that in the US as long as you file Bankruptcy protection and listen to court request…

> And remember, this isn't the "Federal Government" giving him this protection, it is the State of Texas. No, its the Federal judiciary. The particular bankruptcy court happens to be located in Texas (US Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Texas). People often confuse federal courts located in a state with state courts, but they are not at all the same thing, and have nothing to do with the state government…

Thanks for the clarification.

The whole "multiple governments" thing in the US gets confusing sometimes.

Re: Mt. Gox CEO Karpeles refuses travel to U.S. for questioning

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, somehow, I'm not seeing any reason to believe that the people suing Mt.Gox for fraud are in league with a government plot against Karpeles. Mt.Gox sought bankruptcy protection in Japan, and then in the US (tied to the Japanese process). People with claims in the US against Mt.Gox, as is fairly routine in bankruptcy cases where there are active claims, sought to have Karpeles testimony as a representative of the…

Except there is no particular reason why Karpeles actually needs to be physically present to provide his testimony, or for the corporation's designated representative in court to be a specific individual rather than an attorney hired for that purpose. I am not one who believes that physical custody of a witness is either necessary or sufficient to obtain truthful statements from him. I already find some of the tradit…

We have an Internet now. Information moves a lot faster and more inexpensively by itself than it does in the custody of a human courier. Thus, the stated motive--"to appear for questioning"--appears on its face to be bogus.

The purpose of a deposition isn't to elicit information as quickly as possible. That can be held by document requests responded to by email. The purpose of a deposition is to take the sworn testimony of the witness and to record various aspects of their testimony ahead of a trial. Most importantly, demeanor and other side information that isn't properly conveyed by a video deposition. One of the most important concerns, especially with a defendant accused of fraud--is ensuring that the defendant is offering their own answers, and is not merely reading scripted answers from out of the camera's view.

You may find that some people are more forthcoming when a grim-faced person in a robe, with armed men ready to mete out punishment at a word, is not the one demanding answers.

That's cute. You actually think a deposition is where a judge asks questions while the bailiff stands menacingly over the witness? Here's a clue: depositions are conducted by the parties themselves without the assistance of the court. Most depositions are held at the law offices of either the plaintiff or the defendant; the only 3rd-party present is the courtroom reporter who, despite the name, is actually a non-court affiliated commercial service provider licensed to transcribe depositions. At most, the judge will participate in a deposition only if the parties call him to resolve a legal dispute. Bailiffs do not participate in depositions under any circumstances.

Re: Mt. Gox CEO Karpeles refuses travel to U.S. for questioning

#59
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if he refuses to comply with the Courts Who said he refuses to comply with the courts? He's opposing a filing made by the plaintiffs. The court has not even ruled on the filing (which is merely a request from the Plaintiffs for the court to order). Deposition by video conference is common. Alternatively, he's offered to meet them in Taiwan. The guy can be guilty of whatever, but to paint him negatively because he…

1. He borrowed money from various US Institutions. 2. He has failed to return that money. Furthermore, he claims he cannot repay the money back and requests Bankruptcy protection The Plaintiffs are in their right to try and get their money back. You don't just borrow millions of dollars and lose it all. Actually, you're allowed to do that in the US as long as you file Bankruptcy protection and listen to court request…

However, the Texas Courts are complaining because this man is utterly ridiculous and ignorant on how the US Court system works.

You've completely misunderstood the situation. No Court has ordered him to attend a deposition in the United States. The Plaintiff (a normal everyday person) has filed a Motion to compel the Defendant (Karpeles) to attend a deposition in the United States.

The Court has not ruled on that Motion. The Court will eventually either deny or grant the motion. If they deny the motion, then Karpales doesn't have to come to the U.S. for the deposition. If they grant the motion and he refuses to come then you might have an argument that he is flouting U.S. Courts. But we're not there yet, and since compelling someone who lives thousands of miles away to appear for a deposition in person is not a common practice, I imagine we will never be there.

Imagine I live in Alaska and you live in Florida. Now imagine I sue you because you left a comment disagreeing with me on Hacker News. I file a motion to compel you to fly to Alaska so I can ask you a bunch of questions in front of a court reporter (i.e. a deposition). You file a response to the motion saying, "That is ridiculous. I'm not flying to Alaska for this. I believe this lawsuit has no merit. I can be deposed by video conference just as easily."

That is precisely the status of this matter in the Karpeles case.

I'm not from that state, but I imagine that Texas has more respect for people who actually put forth the effort to appear in person in court.

Again, you totally misunderstand this situation. He's not being asked to come to Court by the Court. He's being asked to show up to a deposition by the Plaintiff. A deposition, if you are unfamiliar, is typically done in the office of a private attorney. Not in the Court.

Re: Mt. Gox CEO Karpeles refuses travel to U.S. for questioning

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except there is no particular reason why Karpeles actually needs to be physically present to provide his testimony, or for the corporation's designated representative in court to be a specific individual rather than an attorney hired for that purpose. I am not one who believes that physical custody of a witness is either necessary or sufficient to obtain truthful statements from him. I already find some of the tradit…

We have an Internet now. Information moves a lot faster and more inexpensively by itself than it does in the custody of a human courier. Thus, the stated motive--"to appear for questioning"--appears on its face to be bogus. The purpose of a deposition isn't to elicit information as quickly as possible. That can be held by document requests responded to by email. The purpose of a deposition is to take the sworn testim…

It is equally cute to believe that someone will not lie to you just because you made him promise not to. The actual threat is that if you lie in court, and get caught, you will be thrown in a cage by men with guns.

An oath is not necessary for that. It suffices to say, "If you misrepresent the facts here, we will punish you for it in addition to whatever may be decided in this case. Do you understand?" and for the witness to say "Yes".

If a fact as stated in a deposition is discovered to actually be false, the armed men and iron bars do come into play. Don't make the mistake that just because they are not physically present and visible at the time that the threat of them is not important while someone is being deposed.

I can't tell if you are an apologist for the system, eliding over its obvious flaws, or someone genuinely clueless about theories of trust.

Either way, some cross-disciplinary study of the development of moral behavior in primates may be useful. Imagine asking young children of varying ages whether they took the cookie from the table in the room with the hidden camera, and asking the follow-up question about whether they were lying or not.

After having done so, you may realize that most court procedures operate on the principle that people make moral choices based upon fear of retribution after getting caught. This is entirely unsuitable for people at different stages of moral development from the median, such as children, retarded adults, sociopaths, geniuses, sociologists, atheists, autistics, and philosophers. The implied courtroom intimidation tactics just don't work.

There are several reasons why. Telling the truth as you know it is not an absolute defense against being punished anyway. The only information the court may have about something may be what you tell them. The measure for credibility is not how true something is, but how believable it is. The punishment for lying may be less than the punishment for telling the truth. My cartel enforcer can punish me to a greater extent than the court's enforcers. Etcetera.

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