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It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

randalolson.com

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Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#51

Post by krakensden »

eigenvector wrote: post #32
AaronFriel wrote: post #25

The solution though, isn't to stop providing money to students for college. If you don't have Pell Grants, Stafford loans and the like, lower income bracket individuals would never be able to afford college. There is a simple fact: I could not pay my way through my Midwest university education without these things. I will graduate and be in debt, but I'll be better off having done it. Certainly the experience is wort…

> If people were so rational, everyone would go to college because the expected value of college still dwarfs the cost of college. No, the expected value of a college degree is a result of a labour supply/demand curve and it wouldn't remain the same if you drastically shifted the supply curve. If everyone went to college, the additional earning power of a college graduate relative to the mean would be zero.

> If everyone went to college, the additional earning power of a college graduate relative to the mean would be zero

That's a pretty tautological conclusion- if everyone went to college and their absolute circumstances were that of the upper middle class today, wouldn't we all be happy?

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#52

Post by thothamon »

jliptzin wrote: post #8

Maybe when employers start to figure out that smart, hard working people exist who don't have college degrees and can do the job just as good as ivy leaguers, then we may finally start to see tuition costs come down to earth. Disclaimer: I have a degree from a top school

There aren't very many people who can do complex CS jobs. Or rather, there are a lot of people who claim they can do it because they read a "Teach Yourself X in 24 Hours" book, but who actually can only do the job poorly or not at all. I know because I've been one of these people and I've known many of them.

Everyone has to start at zero in any profession, so this is not a negative. I respect everyone who tries to learn something, and God bless "Teach Yourself" books. But becoming a good computer programmer takes many years of hard work.

A raw student who didn't already have a few successful projects using technology X would very likely cost an employer more than he/she would benefit the employer. Hiring such an intern has to be thought of as pro-bono work, or perhaps an investment in a future employee. With very occasional exception, undergrad interns in any profession don't deserve much above minimum wage.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#53

Post by qnaal »

coin wrote: post #42
brudgers wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, few students get much free money these days. Instead they get loans which charge hefty origination fees - like 5 points, and which are almost impossible to discharge via bankruptcy...despite the fact that many of them are backed by insurance and those which are not insured typically compound interest during the time the student is in school (typically on the full principle). The bloat has not been fueled b…

Just work a government job for 10 years and the remainder of your student loan paid for by the tax payers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Service_Loan_Forgivenes...

How thoughtful and selfless of them- and they say this isn't a Christian country!

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#54

Post by gmays »

I graduated college in California late 2005/early 2006 (winter semester). My whole degree cost somewhere around $5,000 to $6,000. We didn't have much money, so I lived at home for the duration, went to a junior/community college for 1 year, then transferred to a local state college for another 18 months to graduate in a total of about 2.5 years. During that time I only took one summer off to work full-time.

During the school year I didn't work much because the way the school counted credits I could take as many courses as I wanted at the fixed full-time student rate as long as I 1) received approval from the professors and 2) maintained a certain GPA. So I'd just load up on a ridiculous number of classes and spend my days and nights in the library. The girl I was dating lived across the street from the school, so I'd just spend most weeknights with her to save the commute.

Even though the cost of my college education was low by any measure, we (my family) could still barely afford it and I almost had to drop out. I distinctly remember the conversation where my mom told me that she may not be able to afford to keep sending me to school. You'd think being a mix of Black, Mexican and Native American and being on the honor roll every year I'd have had a scholarship of some sort, but nope.

Anyway, last year I was back home visiting family and spoke to a buddy's girlfriend about her educational plans since she was going to the same community college I went to. The cost per credit hour is now about 3X what I paid just 8 years ago! WTF!? I'm not sure how much the fees have increased at the 4-year state school, but I can only imagine.

I was completely blown away. Maybe this is common knowledge, but I had no idea education prices had increased so much, especially at community colleges.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#55

Post by deskglass »

AaronFriel wrote: post #25

The solution though, isn't to stop providing money to students for college. If you don't have Pell Grants, Stafford loans and the like, lower income bracket individuals would never be able to afford college. There is a simple fact: I could not pay my way through my Midwest university education without these things. I will graduate and be in debt, but I'll be better off having done it. Certainly the experience is wort…

If you're interested in this idea you may like The Unincorporated Man, a book partially about a future where people buy and sell stocks of each other. Taxes, for example, are replaced with the government receiving 5% of a person's stock at birth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unincorporated_Man

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#56

Post by [deleted] »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #49
jdreaver wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone pays for these services, but not everyone uses them. For example, I had to pay a ridiculous $600 per year for the recreation center fee in college. I never once stepped in that place, and they wouldn't let me not pay it. I also never used my college's career center, and I have a job. The services you listed are great; I'm not saying gyms and career centers are bad at all. The problem is that everyone in the…

Everyone pays for these services, but not everyone uses them. Here's the deal: it's not about you, it's the university that runs the numbers and decides where the scarce funds will go. (Yes, the funds are scarce. The machinist in my old department will retire soon, and the fear is that there won't be a replacement. When he leaves it will be a disaster, there won't be custom-built instrumentation any longer.) If the r…

[deleted]

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#57

Post by Klinky »

jdreaver wrote: post #45
dnautics wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the idea that people were better at allocating money from themselves is more like: are you better off if I give you $1k no string attached or $1k specifying down to the cent how you are to use it? Generally speaking people know what their needs are and how to balance them more than complete strangers or even, often, friends. Yes, people have weaknesses, but to try to rule over their weaknesses is highly pat…

> $1k specifying down to the cent how you are to use it I would classify that as someone else spending money on you, with the superficial detail that the money happened to pass through your bank account.

Not exactly. Food stamps can only be spent on food, but you can determine what food you buy. Financial Aid must have tuition(and often books) deducted before the remainder is deposited into your account. Your company may pay for your hotel room and meal, but only a room at a 3-star hotel or lower and a $20 meal at a casual dining establishment.

It's not as black and white as you guys put it. Strings can exist, but how much they control you can vary greatly.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#58

Post by theorique »

jdreaver wrote: post #17

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive.

It's certainly not due to inflation in quality of education. More and more classes are taught by graduate students and adjuncts rather than actual professors (who are mostly focused on their research programs in order to earn tenure).

There are probably a few factors.

- increased student expectations of 'fun', leading to new facilities (dorms, student centers, etc), as colleges compete with each other for students

- increasingly top-heavy administration (hey, let's add another $300K Assistant Deputy VP of Student Diversity, etc) providing a path for faculty to 'advance' in their careers

- federally subsidized student loans make it less painful for colleges to increase tuition than if students had to borrow independently or pay out of pocket (this is especially egregious in for-profit education, where getting that federal money is key ... gotta get those marks, er, students enrolled so you get paid!)

Essentially, it's a racket where everyone has an incentive for the price to keep rising - except for the students and their families, and perhaps the government, who's underwriting this entire disastrous bubble.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#59

Post by spikels »

jdreaver wrote: post #38
brudgers wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, few students get much free money these days. Instead they get loans which charge hefty origination fees - like 5 points, and which are almost impossible to discharge via bankruptcy...despite the fact that many of them are backed by insurance and those which are not insured typically compound interest during the time the student is in school (typically on the full principle). The bloat has not been fueled b…

I agree. Most of those loans, however, are sponsored by the government and can't be defaulted on. No normal lender would give an 18 year old $50,000 to get a degree in anthropology, because they are unlikely to get it back. When the student is legally obligated to pay it back, then there is much little risk to the lender. If defaulting on student loans were possible, then the cost of college would decrease.

How would allowing defaults on government guaranteed student loans lower the cost of college? Cost would likely increase for most students.

If loan interest rates were increased to compensate for the additional losses this would increase the cost for everyone getting a college loan who doesn't default. And since default has significant costs overall costs would also go up. Lastly this would reduce the incentive to make wise decisions on educational choices.

On the other hand if interests rate remained the same then this be an would increase government subsidies and thus demand and thus costs for everyone. And again would reduce the incentives to make sound financial choices on education spending.

Either way costs would very likely increase for most students and we would get a less efficient education system.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#60

Post by jonalmeida »

This is my biggest concern since I'm currently a third year at university. It's only by luck that that I'm in a field that pays above minimum wage and it currently in demand for interns.

For others retrospect: I got an 8 month internship after my second year and saved up enough money to pay for my next semester and some savings. Following that semester, I took another 8 month internship with the same process. I'm now finishing my third year (so to speak) and I intend to get another 4 month internship so I can use my remaining savings for a last full year of tuition and spending.

I can't encourage enough that more people should look for and apply for internships for this reason alone if no other.

I hate the idea of being in debt and this seems like the only way to survive.

EDIT: Grammar

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