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If you were building a startup today, what would you use?

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Re: If you were building a startup today, what would you use?

#51
I wouldn't limit myself to one language or framework, in reality.

Growing very fast? Python, with C for high-performance components. Python's got great libraries for everything, and hiring Python and C programmers wouldn't be hard because those languages have a lot of users.

Growing typically fast? Clojure. Drop to Java if needed for extremely high performance demands, or if I need to hire fast.

Growing at a leisurely pace? I'd be tempted to try Haskell (and possibly switch to Clojure). It's badass, it'd be fun to learn, and some of the smartest people I know are big fans of it. However, with the "leisurely pace" (R&D) I'd be tempted to hire people only as smart as I am and let them use whatever they wanted.

Re: If you were building a startup today, what would you use?

#52
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised that it isn't winning by a larger margin.

Why is that? My motivation for picking Android is the larger market share. Even if you have engineering preferences, to me what really matters is getting it out in front of a wider audience.

See for instance http://time.com/23605/uniteds-in-flight-video-streaming-more...

Re: If you were building a startup today, what would you use?

#53

Again with the assumption that "startup" is synonymous with "web/mobile app". What about thick clients/desktop apps/consoles etc? If I were to start my career from scratch in 2014 I'd pick F#, and keep an eye out for Rust.

Why F# over Haskell? I feel like the near-reliance on Windows is the biggest issue for F#. Haskell fits the Unix environment a lot better.

F# for several reasons 1) Tooling, I like proper thick IDE's like xamarins or VS. 2) better platform support (I'm serious, it isnt tied so much to windows as you might think but is one of few languages you can e.g make a 3-platform mobile app with today!). Running Haskell in the same IDE with the same compiler on several platforms is hard. Making android/iOS or web apps with it is also tricky. 3) I like ML more than Haskell, 4) trivial to slap a non-functional C# front end on F# business logic should that be necessary, much harder to do from Haskell or ML without having to resort to C/C++.

Re: If you were building a startup today, what would you use?

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ditched Grails for Play in 2011, definitely prefer Scala over Groovy any day of the week.

I have really only experimented with Scala, so I'm not in a position to really judge it. But my initial impression is that Scala makes it awfully easy to write "write only code" that no one else can read. The amount of optional syntax, and the multitude of different ways to do the same thing, doesn't sit quite so well with me. OTOH, I have generally been a fan of languages with static type systems, and I believe Scal…

Don't get me wrong, Groovy was (and likely still is) a very pleasant alternative to boilerplate laden Java, but the lack of static typing and runtime MOP magic was, in hindsight, more hindrance than help.

Agreed re: many ways to do one thing, Scala's no Python ;-) Readability is a matter of experience. From the outside looking in some Scala code may look fairly dense, but the same can be said of Haskell. Groovy wins in this department, no argument there, any Java dev can grok Groovy.

Re: If you were building a startup today, what would you use?

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ditched Grails for Play in 2011, definitely prefer Scala over Groovy any day of the week.

I have really only experimented with Scala, so I'm not in a position to really judge it. But my initial impression is that Scala makes it awfully easy to write "write only code" that no one else can read. The amount of optional syntax, and the multitude of different ways to do the same thing, doesn't sit quite so well with me. OTOH, I have generally been a fan of languages with static type systems, and I believe Scal…

> right now Groovy is working really well for me

Happy you've found a language that works out for you! You're certainly a prolific promoter of Groovy here at Hacker News...

7 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7360491 "Most of our code is in Groovy"

20 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7278426 "Assuming there is a next startup and it's anything like the current startup, then I'd probably go with Groovy again. Groovy has worked very well for us."

2 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7042329 "We've been using Grails and Groovy extensively (almost exclusively) at Fogbeam Labs for about 3 years now, and I am very happy with how that decision has worked out"

2 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7013785 "Anyway, if you already know Java and have some familiarity with that world, I can't recommend Groovy and Grails highly enough."

2 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7011934 "if you asked me to write a non-trivial program starting today, and I had to optimize for productivity, I'd pick Groovy."

Re: If you were building a startup today, what would you use?

#56
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have really only experimented with Scala, so I'm not in a position to really judge it. But my initial impression is that Scala makes it awfully easy to write "write only code" that no one else can read. The amount of optional syntax, and the multitude of different ways to do the same thing, doesn't sit quite so well with me. OTOH, I have generally been a fan of languages with static type systems, and I believe Scal…

> right now Groovy is working really well for me Happy you've found a language that works out for you! You're certainly a prolific promoter of Groovy here at Hacker News... 7 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7360491 "Most of our code is in Groovy" 20 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7278426 "Assuming there is a next startup and it's anything like the current startup, then I'd probably go w…

Heh, that's interesting in a sense... especially given that I'm not involved with either Groovy or Grails projects in and of themselves (eg, not a committer / contributor to either), just a happy fan.

I do find it curious though, that you took the time necessary to look all of that up and post it. I'm sure every language has a handful of people who are particularly vocal about their support for it. :-)

Re: If you were building a startup today, what would you use?

#57
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> right now Groovy is working really well for me Happy you've found a language that works out for you! You're certainly a prolific promoter of Groovy here at Hacker News... 7 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7360491 "Most of our code is in Groovy" 20 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7278426 "Assuming there is a next startup and it's anything like the current startup, then I'd probably go w…

Heh, that's interesting in a sense... especially given that I'm not involved with either Groovy or Grails projects in and of themselves (eg, not a committer / contributor to either), just a happy fan. I do find it curious though, that you took the time necessary to look all of that up and post it. I'm sure every language has a handful of people who are particularly vocal about their support for it. :-)

> you took the time necessary to look all of that up and post it

Less than 5 minutes work. Having remembered many similar comments from you in the past, I used the search field at the bottom of the page, searching for "groovy", clicked the "comments" and "sort by date", then used the browser search function to jump to references to "mindcrime", cutting and pasting, then editing.

Re: If you were building a startup today, what would you use?

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why F# over Haskell? I feel like the near-reliance on Windows is the biggest issue for F#. Haskell fits the Unix environment a lot better.

F# for several reasons 1) Tooling, I like proper thick IDE's like xamarins or VS. 2) better platform support (I'm serious, it isnt tied so much to windows as you might think but is one of few languages you can e.g make a 3-platform mobile app with today!). Running Haskell in the same IDE with the same compiler on several platforms is hard. Making android/iOS or web apps with it is also tricky. 3) I like ML more than…

Xamarin is really the "killer app" for .NET at the moment. Being able to use a common codebase for Windows RT, Windows Phone, Windows, OS-X, Android, iOS is amazing. Being able to do full native work on top of that on every platform. The apps look, feel and act native cause they are using native widgets.

Last I checked the F# supports was still a little crufty (over a year ago) -- but if they really get the F# support to be top tier, I will have to return and have another look.

Re: If you were building a startup today, what would you use?

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F# for several reasons 1) Tooling, I like proper thick IDE's like xamarins or VS. 2) better platform support (I'm serious, it isnt tied so much to windows as you might think but is one of few languages you can e.g make a 3-platform mobile app with today!). Running Haskell in the same IDE with the same compiler on several platforms is hard. Making android/iOS or web apps with it is also tricky. 3) I like ML more than…

Xamarin is really the "killer app" for .NET at the moment. Being able to use a common codebase for Windows RT, Windows Phone, Windows, OS-X, Android, iOS is amazing. Being able to do full native work on top of that on every platform. The apps look, feel and act native cause they are using native widgets. Last I checked the F# supports was still a little crufty (over a year ago) -- but if they really get the F# suppor…

F# has gone from tiny to quite popular (#12 spot on Tiobe currently), and that shows very clearly in the quality of tools and availability of libs now. It's not the same language/community it was a year ago.

By comparison, Haskell is 49 and no ML lang is in the top 50.

Re: If you were building a startup today, what would you use?

#60

Having nearly finished my first real-world project in NodeJS/MongoDB, I gotta say, it's better than sliced bread. Papa just found himself a brand new hammer. Now to go find some more nails.

Care to compare it with your previous experiences in webdev?

There was a lot less dithering over proper database design; I just created objects in code and stored them wholesale. Aside from some administrative details/learning (zero knowledge going in), I spent far less time worrying about Mongo and more about my code, none of which has to do any manipulation of the database.

On the code side, I already know JS pretty well, though mostly from a UI-manipulation side. It was more like extending knowledge I already had, than having to learn something completely new. The slowest part was trying to determine which modules met my needs, then sorting through the myriad of somewhat confusingly- (or just plain badly-) written documentation.

The best part was being able to use the same language end-to-end. When I deal with PHP, there is always some context-switching between it and the other parts. This project flowed much more naturally and left me quite enthusiastic about whatever the next one is (I get a lot of latitude in devising solutions).

Some of the code is probably badly-written and I'll spend some time cleaning that up (first project in Node) for an update and there are still a couple of parts to write (shell scripts, mainly). There's also one key part that no-one seems to be able to solve (MD5 in Mono won't match the MD5 from JS), but we'll figure that out as we can ignore it, for now.

Really, given all the interruptions I faced during the process, going from zero to finished in two weeks of eight-hour days (including having to learn some things) feels pretty good.

The same project in PHP would have taken about the same amount of time, without having to learn new things. Admittedly, I'm a slow coder because I want to make it right the first time so I don't have to f* with it later, not just have a running solution. I'm not as thrilled with PHP as I used to be and half the time, I feel like I should reinvent the wheel, rather than just using a lib.

That's my informal review of the experience. Take it for what it's worth.

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