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There is no free software, only software that is paid for by somebody else.

lambdassociates.org

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Re: There is no free software, only software that is paid for by somebody else.

#51
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did volunteer work for about 25 years. I've spent a lot of time in that realm and thought a lot about it. I don't mean to imply that what is currently being done must stop. But I agree with the author that his time has value, so if other people expect him to keep giving it away for free, it's basically a parasitic expectation. If he wants to give it away for free, that's his choice. But if he isn't independently we…

Compared to your situation I feel less sympathy for Mr. Tarver since much of his work took place in a university environment and while he claims to have spent 20 years developing the ideas behind Qi, he obviously didn't profit from those efforts in the way that he may have wanted. But I doubt he would have been as critical of government support for projects had his own efforts been more successful since presumably th…

I was inducted into Mu Alpha Theta (a college level math honor society) in 11th grade, the earliest you can be inducted. We did volunteer work tutoring math once or twice a week. I've spent a lot of time in online communities for folks with really smart kids -- the parents are typically also smart and it is an environment where many people come to terms with their own social and emotional problems through trying to do right by their kids. So I've thought a lot about this as well: Smart people are given a lot of messages to the effect that they have a moral obligation to give away what they know for the benefit of all humankind and if, instead, they use it to make big bucks, then they are evil incarnate. This mindset can be extremely hard to escape (at least for some people).

Universities are rife with such "idealism", a form of idealism that I increasingly think is misplaced. To try to put it in a nutshell: One requirement for sainthood is that you be persecuted. We seem to think that good people must suffer horribly as a means to prove their goodness. I'm increasingly disenchanted with the idea that one has to martyr oneself to be a good person, whether that means dying for the cause or just not getting paid adequately for your work. I think all that teaches people is that there are only two kinds of people: victims and victimizers and in order to be good you must be a victim because the other choice is intolerable. I have concluded that trying to be "good" by being a willing victim forces others into the role of victimizer even if they don't want to be there. So I believe that if one wants to genuinely do good in the world, one must pursue a paradigm of symbiotic exchange rather than letting people parasitically use you up and playing the role of martyr/victim.

Symbiotic exchange sounds rather like Capitalism. I don't think that means every thing one does has to be in pursuit of the almighty dollar. I haven't been here long, but I'm impressed with the quality of HN so far. I am struck by the fact that it was initially created as a means for people at Y-Combinator to get to know potential applicants -- ie although it's offered as a "free" service, it ultimately is part of their business strategy. It looks to me like this is why HN is a better run forum than many I have participated in which were all-volunteer. HN can't afford to cater to personal peccadilloes and personality quirks of a volunteer staff. It has to meet a certain professional standard. And to the degree that at least some of the members want to apply to Y-Combinator, the participants have motivation as well to remain professional and polite. It is not a good place to indulge in habits that promote flame-wars and the like because the purpose is not merely social. Not everyone here will have such a goal, but it still impacts group culture. An influential minority can go a long way towards shaping community behavior. For some members, there is potentially millions of dollars at stake (if they can get VC from Y-Combinator and launch a highly successful business). It's strong motivation to behave better than what you see in many online forums where everything is idealistically given away "free" and flame-wars and other problems are the rule, not the exception.

Re: There is no free software, only software that is paid for by somebody else.

#52
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confusing the cost to you with the cost to me. You're correct that there was an opportunity cost for me to write the code. I spent a few hundred hours on it, when I might have been programming for money. Fair enough. But when we talk about whether software is free, the question is either how much is costs to use it (i.e. is it free as in beer?) or what license it uses (i.e is it free as in freedom?). In this c…

I'm not confusing anything, I'm explaining to you what the original author meant by software not ever been free. Someone always bears the cost; if the user pays nothing whatsoever, the developer pays with his/her time, which they could have used otherwise to program for money. Yes, this isn't what's usually meant by the code not being free, but that is the author's entire point . He's arguing that the usual way to ta…

My apologies if I seemed smug, tedious, condescending, knee-jerky, or whatever. I'm not intentionally repeating anything I read somewhere else. I'm just thinking about my own experience with free software, and then writing what I think.

I do genuinely think that there are two different costs for software-- the cost to the programmer and the cost to the user. The two costs have no relation to one another.

I agree that you and the original author are both talking about the cost to the programmer when you say that "free software" is not really free, in that the programmer bears an opportunity cost, as you described earlier. That's true. You, the original author, and I all agree on that point.

Where we disagree, I think, is about whether that cost is important. I think that proprietary and free software have roughly the same cost to the programmer, i.e. it takes just as long, just as much effort, to write code, regardless of whether you're getting paid. Since the cost to the programmer is the same for both, it's not a distinguishing feature of free software.

If he just means that there is a cost to create all software, it's an obvious conclusion. I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim otherwise, i.e. that free software is created without time and effort by programmers. That's why I don't find the original argument compelling.

Re: There is no free software, only software that is paid for by somebody else.

#53
Here is my take on FOSS, I hope you find it interesting:

* FOSS is great at very small number of things: C compiler (gcc), Operating system (Linux), programming languages (zillions), Apache, MySQL, and a few others.

* FOSS is OK at a certain number of larger areas - relatively simple games (BzTank), office applications (Open Office)

* FOSS is absolutely horrible at new product development. Anyone with a brain and a decent idea that SOME people MIGHT pay for can see that FOSS is inferior to all of these:

   * web-based subscription model
   * web-based advertising model
   * closed source shrinkwrap model
   * closed-source consulting model
The only reason you would choose FOSS over these is you don't believe anyone would pay anything for what you want to make (but they might donate after using it). At this point, if you still choose to develop, then

   A) It is a hobby, and the only thing tying you to the project is your interest

   B) You can choose between freeware/shareware and FOSS
The game Dwarf Fortress is a good example of freeware. The creators want to retain artistic control over their creation, so they release as closed source software.

In conclusion, if you release source code, then:

   * others may improve the product, which benefits you because you are using it

   * you may lose artistic control due to fork pressure
If you don't release source code, then:

   * you have to do all of the development yourself or through people you hire

   * you retain total control over the product
Now you know!

Re: There is no free software, only software that is paid for by somebody else.

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No he isn't. If Company X gains $1,000,000 savings due to investing $700,000 in developing a piece of software, they have earned $300,000. Then, they open source the software, and improvements to it by outside contributors result in them saving another $500,000. Then, Company Y adopts the software and uses it to save $2,000,000. They improve it as well, which results in them saving another $500,000 and Company X savi…

What you've proven is that if I choose whatever numbers I want, and add and multiply them together in whatever order I choose, I can get whatever answer I please. Also, if you read the article, he doesn't argue that source code should be closed - he argues that it should be paid for.

Let's turn his analogy around and ask, if every startup and nonprofit that ever wanted to put up a website had to either buy or build a webserver, would the web as we know it exist? More to the point would the standard protocols and encodings that we mostly take for granted have evolved? Or would we all be coding for aolserver and bitching about how to get our websites approved on different cable networks?

And the stuff about the source being paid for is a red herring, only a very few licenses prohibit the sale of software (and the GPL explicitly allows it, the only restriction is that if you sell software built with GPL components you must provide the source as well as the object code).

Re: There is no free software, only software that is paid for by somebody else.

#55
post #25

I am reminded of the saying in the military: Freedom isn't free. (I think Heinlein said it was paid for with the blood of patriots.) The article says his time is worth something, and that is a big part of his point: To get all this "free" stuff, you have to have some intelligent, capable person giving away skills and knowledge they could be making money for. I spent a lot of time giving away information. The informat…

> could no longer afford to follow in the footsteps of people like that

The late Erik Naggum had something to say about this:

"I no longer share code with other people by default. My experience and problem-solving abilities have become the bread and butter of my life, not just "fun" until something rewarding comes along. Like many older fans of Free Software and Open Source, I have discovered that it is really only free in the sense that the time you spend on it is worthless. When people refuse to help pay for the roof over your head and your meals when you help them do their well-paying jobs, sooner or later you get seriously pissed."

(http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/e239591cbc...)

Re: There is no free software, only software that is paid for by somebody else.

#56
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confusing the cost to you with the cost to me. You're correct that there was an opportunity cost for me to write the code. I spent a few hundred hours on it, when I might have been programming for money. Fair enough. But when we talk about whether software is free, the question is either how much is costs to use it (i.e. is it free as in beer?) or what license it uses (i.e is it free as in freedom?). In this c…

I'm not confusing anything, I'm explaining to you what the original author meant by software not ever been free. Someone always bears the cost; if the user pays nothing whatsoever, the developer pays with his/her time, which they could have used otherwise to program for money. Yes, this isn't what's usually meant by the code not being free, but that is the author's entire point . He's arguing that the usual way to ta…

The author has a point, and I think the "free as in freedom" comments are clearly missing that point. But I wouldn't say it is explained very clearly. It's framed as an attack on what appears to be a straw man. Finding a frame of reference to interpret the tirade is hard[1], and the point about the costs of work must be extracted from the rest.

[1] Hard to do well. It's pretty easy to make vague assumptions and proceed from there.

Re: There is no free software, only software that is paid for by somebody else.

#57
post #56
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not confusing anything, I'm explaining to you what the original author meant by software not ever been free. Someone always bears the cost; if the user pays nothing whatsoever, the developer pays with his/her time, which they could have used otherwise to program for money. Yes, this isn't what's usually meant by the code not being free, but that is the author's entire point . He's arguing that the usual way to ta…

The author has a point, and I think the "free as in freedom" comments are clearly missing that point. But I wouldn't say it is explained very clearly. It's framed as an attack on what appears to be a straw man. Finding a frame of reference to interpret the tirade is hard[1], and the point about the costs of work must be extracted from the rest. [1] Hard to do well. It's pretty easy to make vague assumptions and proce…

You're right, and thanks for checking my ire. I probably exaggerated the merits of the tirade because I was so annoyed by all the smug comments that so clearly missed the not-so-sophisticated point about the cost of work. I still think it's an interesting rant, even if it could have been better structured and less ranty.

Re: There is no free software, only software that is paid for by somebody else.

#58
post #25

I am reminded of the saying in the military: Freedom isn't free. (I think Heinlein said it was paid for with the blood of patriots.) The article says his time is worth something, and that is a big part of his point: To get all this "free" stuff, you have to have some intelligent, capable person giving away skills and knowledge they could be making money for. I spent a lot of time giving away information. The informat…

> could no longer afford to follow in the footsteps of people like that The late Erik Naggum had something to say about this: "I no longer share code with other people by default. My experience and problem-solving abilities have become the bread and butter of my life, not just "fun" until something rewarding comes along. Like many older fans of Free Software and Open Source, I have discovered that it is really only f…

Thanks. I will read it some time when I am not so tired. :-)
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