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How the world came to hate Silicon Valley

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Re: How the world came to hate Silicon Valley

#51

Post by steven2012 »

michaelochurch wrote: post #46
sskates wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I read HN and see an extremely anti-startup comment I always know it's from you. For a while I'd get angry reading your comments, but I'm actually curious- What on earth happened between you and startups to make you think they're a huge scam to take advantage of the unsuspecting? I'm a nobody who came to Silicon Valley and has done relatively well for himself as a founder. I've seen many, many other founders…

I've written about it at length already and don't choose to relive it in detail, but I worked for an extremely unethical startup. In 3 months, I saw... bait-and-switch hiring all over the place, multiple people hired into the same management role, and (after I left) a CEO who spent months trying to destroy my reputation. At 3 months, I was brought into a room with HR and the CTO. Upper management wanted to get rid of…

"I do have to offer this disclaimer, though. I never worked on the West Coast."

LOL okay I guess that explains it. I've been in the Bay Area since the dot-com times, and the type of behavior you describe is something I've never seen, not even once. I've worked for some real assholes, and I don't deny that this probably happens here, but not often for it to be a discernible trend.

Yes, you had a bad experience, but no it's not all like that, at all. I work for a YC startup, something I never thought I would do, and the cofounders are genuine, smart and people I'm ready to put my career and financial future behind even though I'm roughly 15 years older.

Re: How the world came to hate Silicon Valley

#53

Post by ForHackernews »

michaelochurch wrote: post #47
TDL wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wall Streeters are greedy, but they don't go out of their way to ruin peoples' careers..." How confident are you about this claim?

Well, I've worked on both. Wall Street people are ruthless and greedy. If the trade they want to do means getting up at 3:00 am (or, even, getting the team up) for the European open, they'll do it. They want to win, and they play hardball. However, Wall Street's rules are well-defined (unlike in VC) and most of the obviously unethical things have been made illegal. Wall Street people, for the most part, don't like be…

> Wall Street people, for the most part, don't like being in jail and would rather avoid that.

Oh, c'mon, jail time is not a realistic threat for Wall Street types: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-stre...

Re: How the world came to hate Silicon Valley

#54

Post by ForHackernews »

dredmorbius wrote: post #40
mercutio2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't in any way think the antagonism towards tech workers make sense, I don't think you're quite on target with your numbers. A) income tax is progressive and continuous, you can't say $28k in taxes for the 28% bracket (however, FICA and CA income taxes mean that number is in the right ball park) B) a couple living on one income in a 2-bedroom isn't considered a birthright in dense cities like SF C) $100k wo…

Net of deductions (Federal & State income tax, FICA, SSI, healthcare, and 401k -- remember, you've got to save for retirement too), figuring taking home 60% of your salary isn't a bad ballpark. So yes, after I'm not so sure that low six figures is considered low for someone straight out of school, remembering that not all hires are superstars, and there are a lot of less technical positions being filled as well. And…

> and 401k -- remember, you've got to save for retirement too

Oh no! I don't have any money left after I'm done saving all my money!

Re: How the world came to hate Silicon Valley

#55

Post by dredmorbius »

ForHackernews wrote: post #54
dredmorbius wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net of deductions (Federal & State income tax, FICA, SSI, healthcare, and 401k -- remember, you've got to save for retirement too), figuring taking home 60% of your salary isn't a bad ballpark. So yes, after I'm not so sure that low six figures is considered low for someone straight out of school, remembering that not all hires are superstars, and there are a lot of less technical positions being filled as well. And…

> and 401k -- remember, you've got to save for retirement too Oh no! I don't have any money left after I'm done saving all my money!

There's short-term accessible savings, and your retirement.

Part of those "subsistence wages" are the funds which cover your expenses when you aren't working. Whether due to disability, between gigs (part of Smith's detailed discussion of the basis of wages in Book I, Ch. VIII of Wealth of Nations, I recommend it strongly), or in old age.

Your 401k funds are not generally available to you to meet pre-retirement expense needs. There are some exceptions, but in almost all cases, you're very strongly advised not to make use of them: you can borrow against 401k funds, but this 1) costs you the earnings on those funds (part of the basis of the whole concept) and 2) the loan must be repaid (though without interest) if you terminate a relationship with a loan sponsor. Which is to say: at the very time you're most likely to have a cash crunch (you're transitioning employment), you have to repay the loan.

Early distribution is also possible, but with very significant financial penalties.

Your comment is juvenile and specious.

Re: How the world came to hate Silicon Valley

#56

Post by ForHackernews »

dredmorbius wrote: post #55
ForHackernews wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and 401k -- remember, you've got to save for retirement too Oh no! I don't have any money left after I'm done saving all my money!

There's short-term accessible savings, and your retirement. Part of those "subsistence wages" are the funds which cover your expenses when you aren't working. Whether due to disability, between gigs (part of Smith's detailed discussion of the basis of wages in Book I, Ch. VIII of Wealth of Nations , I recommend it strongly), or in old age. Your 401k funds are not generally available to you to meet pre-retirement expe…

Just for a little context, fewer than half of Americans even have access to a 401(k) (or 403(b) or similar) retirement plan, and its disproportionately the wealthy that can afford to take advantage of such plans: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-401k-retirement-plans-fail...

Look, I get where you're coming from, in that you don't feel rich, especially in the context of San Francisco, but seriously...

"The median household income in the United States today is $50,000. Half of all households make more than this. Half of all households make less. The big expenses in the Xxxxxxxxx family budget--their $60,000 a year in contributions to tax-favored retirement savings vehicles, their $25,000 a year savings building home equity, their $55,000 for housing, their $60,000 in private school costs, even their $10,000 a year for new cars--are simply out of reach for the overwhelming majority of Americans."

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/09/in-which-mr-deling-res...

Re: How the world came to hate Silicon Valley

#57

Post by nostrademons »

__--__ wrote: post #45
sskates wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I read HN and see an extremely anti-startup comment I always know it's from you. For a while I'd get angry reading your comments, but I'm actually curious- What on earth happened between you and startups to make you think they're a huge scam to take advantage of the unsuspecting? I'm a nobody who came to Silicon Valley and has done relatively well for himself as a founder. I've seen many, many other founders…

He's not the only anti-startup commenter here. I'm curious, have you ever worked at a startup as a programmer, not as a founder? Sometimes, it's easier to see the downside of a system when you're not the one profiting from it.

The part I don't understand is why people generalize their one bad experience to "the whole system is corrupt!"

I've worked for two startups as a programmer. They were both broken, and each was broken in its own way. I don't think that the founders of them were bad people or out to screw me. They were, however, way in over their heads. Startups are hard.

I also founded a startup. It was also broken in its own way, despite trying to avoid all the mistakes that I'd seen my previous bosses make. Startups are hard. Luckily, I didn't take anyone else down with me - it was just me and my cofounder, he soft-landed at business school and I soft-landed at Google.

I now work at Google. It is significantly less broken than any previous startups I've worked at. However, there are still a bunch of things about it that are annoyances.

No place is ever going to be perfect, but if you tar each new employer with the same broad brush that made you leave the last one, then chances are the same broad problems will come up.

Re: How the world came to hate Silicon Valley

#58

Post by joe_the_user »

waps wrote: post #49
epoxyhockey wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

employees low enough level to be riding the shuttles Yes, SF's banking-class and politicians are loving this. The middle-class is distracted fighting their middle-class peers.

Are you really unable to see the problem is not "the banking class" and a few politicians. The problem is thousands of developers making much more than normal people, and a way too big fraction of them wanting to live right smack downtown San Francisco ? Or are you truly unable to see that you are not making anything remotely near average wages ? That you are not middle class, and certainly also not working as hard a…

I am sad to see someone actually falling for the claim that someone else being willing to pay a higher price is to blame for the cycle of often illegal and generally unconscionable evictions that have happened in San Francisco and elsewhere.

I mean, the immediate cause is landlords and the ultimate market cause is the lack of housing in Silicon Valley. Tech workers in SF are just dominoes in a chain.

And the cause for Tech workers being better paid is the failure of the average workers to defend their wages. You could defend your living standard by the left-wing means of unionization or by the right-wing means of providing more value to your employer so if you just sit on your ass and attack higher paid workers, you deserve contempt from any point of view.

Re: How the world came to hate Silicon Valley

#59

Post by nirnira »

waps wrote: post #50
nirnira wrote: post #15

Sean Parker, the founding president of Facebook, spent a reported $US10 million on his wedding Wow, how unbelievably arrogant. Spending his money however the fuck he wants? Paying people to render him services of their own free will? What an asshole. He must've forgot signing that social contract with angry poor radicals that once you hit $(whatever today's immoral amount of money is) you no longer have the right to…

People getting thrown out of their houses due to lack of money (and lack of earning capability) are complaining about other people spending massive amounts on frivolous uses ? I am amazed. Wait ... no I'm not. I'm even inclined to call those claims justified.

Sorry, what? Nobody is getting "thrown out" of "their" houses. People who were renting other people's for a period of time found themselves outbid by other people who wanted to live in the same area and were willing to pay more for it than they were. And so they were asked to leave. Perfectly legal. 100% the property owner's right.

Nobody signed a contract with these people promising to let them live there forever. They were rentors, and if they didn't understand that they could be asked to leave at any time by the true owners of the property, that's their fault. And if they were so concerned about their ability to continue living there indefinitely, maybe they should have worked harder to ensure their position? Maybe they should have striven to provide more economic value, so they could have purchased this apparently extremely important good?

These people have no excuse. They knew the rules. The rules were clear to everyone. They were happy as long as they got what they wanted. Now the situation no longer favours them, they want the rules to be changed - so that they get everything exactly how they want it.

Re: How the world came to hate Silicon Valley

#60

Post by dredmorbius »

ForHackernews wrote: post #56
dredmorbius wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's short-term accessible savings, and your retirement. Part of those "subsistence wages" are the funds which cover your expenses when you aren't working. Whether due to disability, between gigs (part of Smith's detailed discussion of the basis of wages in Book I, Ch. VIII of Wealth of Nations , I recommend it strongly), or in old age. Your 401k funds are not generally available to you to meet pre-retirement expe…

Just for a little context, fewer than half of Americans even have access to a 401(k) (or 403(b) or similar) retirement plan, and its disproportionately the wealthy that can afford to take advantage of such plans: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-401k-retirement-plans-fail... Look, I get where you're coming from, in that you don't feel rich, especially in the context of San Francisco, but seriously... "The median hou…

Just for a little context, fewer than half of Americans even have access to a 401(k)

Yep. That's going to be a problem.

Even many of those who do have a 401(k) (or equivalent) are subject to market losses, insufficient funding, interrupted employment (how many 30-40 somethings do you know with significant interruptions in the professional lives -- right in the middle of their peak earning years)? One of a number of messes we're busily creating.

I've been arguing in another thread about what a minimum living wage means, and on those terms, you've got to allow for retirement. Otherwise the alternative (including state support of retirees) remains yet another net welfare support for businesses which were paying insufficient salaries in the first place.

See thread here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7337228

And post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/1z5vfb/thoughts...

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