Even without technological advances, the US public school system has been able to teach false history (and other subjects including science) for decades. Sure it can be checked and a minority of students may be angry for being lied to but this has yet to stop the system. It's true that information is hardly it's primary purpose, that being babysitting, but the perception that school is for learning lends it much cred…
Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?
51–60 of 81 posts
Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mass surveillance isn't inevitable, it's a political decision and a decision which is reversible. PRISM and Xkeyscore didn't invent themselves - they took money and manpower and above all political will to come to fruition. We have nuclear weapons, but nuclear proliferation isn't inevitable. Dismissing people who are opposed to the abuse of technology for purposes which are fundamentally anti-democratic as "illogical…
Technology is like water, it finds its own level. When you make sensors and storage as cheap as dirt then you're going to end up with widespread deployment. In many polities, people seem to think that the costs are outweighed by the benefits (of improved security and so on). I'm not sure that they are and you are clearly sure that they aren't, but ultimately the criteria for arriving at a given position are arbitrary…
The surveillance technology gets cheaper over time, but so does the counter-surveillance technology. If they store everything then we encrypt everything, etc. But that balance doesn't exist in a vacuum. It very much matters whether we allow what the government is doing to be considered legitimate. If they're not allowed to do it and you find out that they did then you can have the evidence thrown out or file a lawsuit against the perpetrators; if they are allowed to do it and you employ or develop reasonable counter-surveillance technologies to prevent them from doing it then they may charge you with a crime just for thwarting their surveillance. That is a distinction that matters regardless of how cheap the technology gets.
Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?
#53Moreover the present is always being rewritten by government and the media. This is something that's been apparent to a lot of people for some time. Not only did Noam Chomsky write extensively on this subject but Hilaire Belloc wrote more or less the same thing about newspapers in 1918 in "The Free Press".[1]
One of the key things Belloc pointed to was the necessity of non-corporate, decentralized, topical, and outright propagandist press to counteract the effects of corporate newspapers. I think he'd be very pleased to see the current blogosphere. So the author's points about the necessity of decentralized technology actually go quite a bit further than the points he makes.
On the other hand though, it seems to me that what this shows is that there is no bright line between dystopia and normal life. By some measures, of course, we are already in a surveillance state dystopia. So I am not sure the question is meaningful.
The major problem that makes the dystopian elements of the present hard to dislodge however are the twin facts that:
1. American culture is very much focused on impersonal institutions of scale (central government, big corporations), and individualism, and this isolates individuals, denying them support break free from the impersonal institutional bonds that we have created in substitute for the bonds of family, neighborhood, and community (which were stronger when I was growing up and are stronger where I am living right now, Indonesia).
2. We place our primary protections of the individual not in social ties (common everywhere else) but in documents which purport to restrain the central government (namely the Bill of Rights).
My view is that until we can start focusing on building stronger communities, decentralizing government and bringing the power closer to the people, and decentralizing the economy (disfavoring large businesses in favor of small ones) the dystopia will in fact deepen.
Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
Technology is like water, it finds its own level. When you make sensors and storage as cheap as dirt then you're going to end up with widespread deployment. In many polities, people seem to think that the costs are outweighed by the benefits (of improved security and so on). I'm not sure that they are and you are clearly sure that they aren't, but ultimately the criteria for arriving at a given position are arbitrary…
> When you make sensors and storage as cheap as dirt then you're going to end up with widespread deployment. The surveillance technology gets cheaper over time, but so does the counter-surveillance technology. If they store everything then we encrypt everything, etc. But that balance doesn't exist in a vacuum. It very much matters whether we allow what the government is doing to be considered legitimate. If they're n…
In theory, but in practice most people can't be bothered. What I was thinking of above was not so much personal surveillance like the NSA tracking how often you called your mother, but more the mass impersonal stuff that yields an enormous amount of utility in the aggregate and that's totally public.
For example, consider people walking around with mesh networking devices. Even if you don't identify any of them personally, you could still extract a vast amount of intelligence from watching the pattern of anonymous dots swarming on a map. Or a sufficiently dense number of surveillance cameras plugged into a machine learning system would facilitate all kinds of surveillance, even if the cameras were private and the contents had to be subpoenaed.
As I've said numerous times, you're certainly not going to see any constraints on government until people bite the bullet and define what constraints should be on private entities for the gathering and storage of data.
Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?
#55I think super accurate mass surveillance is inevitable. It goes with expanding technological capabilities, both government and civilian. I think the real question needs to be focused at how it's applied, whether it's used solely for good or evil. Fretting over whether or how it's coming is simply illogical, focusing efforts on making sure it's used properly is the only forward thinking, reality accepting solution.
It is not inevitable. Also all technologies are used by people meaning they are used for good and evil.
I say it is not inevitable for a couple reasons. First, in order to be super-accurate, you have to be able to make inferences based on existing data to a very high probability of correctness. Unfortunately, these inferences are based on hidden assumptions and can't be tested. Therefore you have no way of knowing how accurate the mass surveillance actually is. Worse, the more massive the surveillance becomes, the more of an inkblot you have to work with. As Heisenberg said, "Data does not imply theory."[1] And the more data you have the easier it is to delude yourself into thinking all the conclusions are perfectly accurate because of confirmation bias etc.
So you have solid epistemological reasons that the technology can never become super-accurate.
Additionally deployment isn't inevitable. What's really going on here is that companies are trying to sell products to the government, and Congress is allocating lots of money to buy them. Funding decisions are political and they are not inevitable.
So in my view, this technology creates more problems than it solves (on a good day even), and represents a way for wealthy individuals to get money transferred to them.
[1] Heisenberg, Werner. "Physics and Philosophy"
Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?
#56Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?
#57If mass surveillance does exist, the concern becomes equality of access. Information asymmetry is now the problem. Fear of blackmail is moot when everyone already has access to the information. If we must have technology intruding on our privacy, I would personally prefer a world where everyone can intrude, instead of a select few.
Fully public, mass surveillance is logical extension and conclusion of if-you-have-nothing-to-hide rhetoric.
Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?
#58M Against M by Declan Tan.
Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?
#59We are in transition between a Nash equilibrium where information was scarce, to another where it will be hyper-abundant and there's a temporary window open to exploit the older paradigm, before it completely shifts to the newer. The solution to the problems of privacy is economic. As the quantity of data in the world expands exponentially, so the cost of using it scales. There is at present an unproven hypothesis th…
Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?
#60We are in transition between a Nash equilibrium where information was scarce, to another where it will be hyper-abundant and there's a temporary window open to exploit the older paradigm, before it completely shifts to the newer. The solution to the problems of privacy is economic. As the quantity of data in the world expands exponentially, so the cost of using it scales. There is at present an unproven hypothesis th…
Uh, how is this in any way a Nash equilibrium? And the rise of the pervading surveillance state has little to do with the perceived value of the data collected.