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Why you should move that button 3px to the left

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Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#51

Post by dchichkov »

radley wrote: post #43
sxp wrote: post #33

So why should you move that button? The article doesn't actually answer the question. If a UX designer just says "move the button by 3px because it looks nicer", then there is a good chance that someone higher up the hierarchy will say move the button by 4px because that looks better. And since neither of them are able to actually justify their reasons beyond some vapid and subjective claim of making the product "mor…

Arrrrrrrrgh. Engineers. If I were to say "I had a design bug" and leave it at that, they'd do it. Even better, if I were to say "I resolved some design flow lag" they'd even smile. Engineers can't stand lag (and that's exactly what the fix is about). As for PS mocks - stuff is entirely different on the screen. And the 3px difference could have been a dev mistake and the designer is correcting them. Anyways, designers…

Here's another one. Engineers also can't stand broken flow. If you'd ask me "hey, can you move that button by 3px?", that's pretty much equivalent to asking me - "hey, can I waste some of your time?". But if it actually fixes lag or broken flow, this is significant. And any good engineer will be happy to help that fixed.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#52

Post by RivieraKid »

seivan wrote: post #34

This article pisses me off something immensely. How about you learn to fucking code your own design? 'Yet we’re at the mercy of our teams. We can design beautiful, intricate, delightful details — but we can’t build, test, and deploy them all.' No shit, so how about you stop being one of those lazy-ass photoshop goons who play fucking color-the-button on dribble all day long and actually learn to code your own fucking…

Yes, that article felt somewhat arrogant. Designers should shut up about the obsession with details etc. already, it's getting annoying. We get it, ok?

I sometimes design too and must say, programming is harder -- it's more intellectually demanding, less rewarding and on average more frustrating. That's why I value programmers' work more.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#53

Post by hrktb »

radley wrote: post #43
sxp wrote: post #33

So why should you move that button? The article doesn't actually answer the question. If a UX designer just says "move the button by 3px because it looks nicer", then there is a good chance that someone higher up the hierarchy will say move the button by 4px because that looks better. And since neither of them are able to actually justify their reasons beyond some vapid and subjective claim of making the product "mor…

Arrrrrrrrgh. Engineers. If I were to say "I had a design bug" and leave it at that, they'd do it. Even better, if I were to say "I resolved some design flow lag" they'd even smile. Engineers can't stand lag (and that's exactly what the fix is about). As for PS mocks - stuff is entirely different on the screen. And the 3px difference could have been a dev mistake and the designer is correcting them. Anyways, designers…

There's something sad about that division of people in engineers and designers. For any application that pretends to be worth anything, 'engineers' also participate to the design phase from an early stage, and 'designers' have sufficient knowledge of the basic engineering issues to take into account.

IMO the job title 'designer' is really void of meaning and should go away, but I'm not holding my breath.

Perpetuating the "designers are fearies and engineers are robots" stereotype doesn't really help in any way

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#54

Post by ricardobeat »

exizt88 wrote: post #44
seivan wrote: post #34

This article pisses me off something immensely. How about you learn to fucking code your own design? 'Yet we’re at the mercy of our teams. We can design beautiful, intricate, delightful details — but we can’t build, test, and deploy them all.' No shit, so how about you stop being one of those lazy-ass photoshop goons who play fucking color-the-button on dribble all day long and actually learn to code your own fucking…

This is really wrong, and the arrogant tone doesn't help a bit. The truth is that a designer who spends 100% of his time doing design will definitely be better at design than a designer who spends 50% time designing and 50% time developing. These are two very different skill sets (even though their fundamentals may be closer). Anyway, a good designer's decision to move something 3px to the left should be respected (b…

> moving a button 3px to the left shouldn't be a problem for any self-respecting developer

That's exactly the kind of thinking that developers abhore. Imagine that the whole interface is built on top of a planned framework that follows strict rules and conventions. This button is following the exact spacing and dimensions implemented in the framework, nevertheless the designer's static mockup is different for some reason (i.e. designed in photoshop).

Now, moving this specific button 3px to the left could be as easy as a `margin-left: -3px` or some other simple line of code, but that is a hack/code smell that will be met with contempt from everyone who looks at it in the future, a maintenance burden, and is deviating from the established standards created in collaboration with the designers themselves...

Other possible scenarios are interpolation mismatches, rendering differences between browsers, padding/borders unaccounted for in the original design, dynamic content that by chance nearly aligns to other element, etc etc. Very rarely is the case that the developer simply wrote 6px instead of 3px by mistake.

This happens way, way too often, and the resistance offered by developers is completely understandable.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#55

Post by seivan »

exizt88 wrote: post #44
seivan wrote: post #34

This article pisses me off something immensely. How about you learn to fucking code your own design? 'Yet we’re at the mercy of our teams. We can design beautiful, intricate, delightful details — but we can’t build, test, and deploy them all.' No shit, so how about you stop being one of those lazy-ass photoshop goons who play fucking color-the-button on dribble all day long and actually learn to code your own fucking…

This is really wrong, and the arrogant tone doesn't help a bit. The truth is that a designer who spends 100% of his time doing design will definitely be better at design than a designer who spends 50% time designing and 50% time developing. These are two very different skill sets (even though their fundamentals may be closer). Anyway, a good designer's decision to move something 3px to the left should be respected (b…

'Anyway, a good designer's decision to move something 3px to the left should be respected (because he knows better - he's a good designer). And moving a button 3px to the left shouldn't be a problem for any self-respecting developer.'

Not arrogant at all. Jeez.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#56

Post by hrktb »

exizt88 wrote: post #44
seivan wrote: post #34

This article pisses me off something immensely. How about you learn to fucking code your own design? 'Yet we’re at the mercy of our teams. We can design beautiful, intricate, delightful details — but we can’t build, test, and deploy them all.' No shit, so how about you stop being one of those lazy-ass photoshop goons who play fucking color-the-button on dribble all day long and actually learn to code your own fucking…

This is really wrong, and the arrogant tone doesn't help a bit. The truth is that a designer who spends 100% of his time doing design will definitely be better at design than a designer who spends 50% time designing and 50% time developing. These are two very different skill sets (even though their fundamentals may be closer). Anyway, a good designer's decision to move something 3px to the left should be respected (b…

I think you need to define 'design'.

If you mean beautiful mockups than will win a contract with a client and that's all, perhaps your 100% photoshop person will be the best suited.

If you mean building an interface acknowledging harmony of the UX, the user and clients needs, the medium, the strengths and weaknesses of the platform it will be built onto, the project budget and the maintenance afterwards, a 50% person will be thousand times more valuable.

> moving a button 3px to the left

I think it's a stereotype of the request the lay man doesn't get but can cause a project to lose hours or days of dev if the request just goes through. If 3px from where your button is is another component, just imagine that component also being bind to specific size and placement rules (or like, it's actually not your component but some other library's one), and moving that button 3px might mean rebuilding the whole screen.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#57

Post by WWKong »

So why should you move the button? You didn't say that. All I see from you is, "move the button" which is up against the request from the business guy that reads, "add the 4th option to the drop down and the client will pay us $50K more". Want to guess what is going to make the next sprint?

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#58

Post by exizt88 »

ricardobeat wrote: post #54
exizt88 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really wrong, and the arrogant tone doesn't help a bit. The truth is that a designer who spends 100% of his time doing design will definitely be better at design than a designer who spends 50% time designing and 50% time developing. These are two very different skill sets (even though their fundamentals may be closer). Anyway, a good designer's decision to move something 3px to the left should be respected (b…

> moving a button 3px to the left shouldn't be a problem for any self-respecting developer That's exactly the kind of thinking that developers abhore. Imagine that the whole interface is built on top of a planned framework that follows strict rules and conventions. This button is following the exact spacing and dimensions implemented in the framework, nevertheless the designer's static mockup is different for some re…

> Now, moving this specific button 3px to the left could be as easy as a `margin-left: -3px` or some other simple line of code, but that is a hack/code smell that will be met with contempt from everyone who looks at it in the future

Yep, that's a compromise. But if it makes the product better overall, it must be done. If the designer says so, I believe them -- and if I say that a designer's request would lead to a significant setback for our production schedule, they believe me. It's not the matter of designer/developer interaction, it's the matter of product value.

I too abhor such things, but when a designer asks for it, I do "position: relative; left: 3px;". This is exactly what relative positioning was made for, and it makes the developer's intent obvious.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#59

Post by lighthazard »

RivieraKid wrote: post #52
seivan wrote: post #34

This article pisses me off something immensely. How about you learn to fucking code your own design? 'Yet we’re at the mercy of our teams. We can design beautiful, intricate, delightful details — but we can’t build, test, and deploy them all.' No shit, so how about you stop being one of those lazy-ass photoshop goons who play fucking color-the-button on dribble all day long and actually learn to code your own fucking…

Yes, that article felt somewhat arrogant. Designers should shut up about the obsession with details etc. already, it's getting annoying. We get it, ok? I sometimes design too and must say, programming is harder -- it's more intellectually demanding, less rewarding and on average more frustrating. That's why I value programmers' work more.

I'm a programmer and a shitty designer. While I can get 'minified'/simplified designs, I could never (at least not without a lot more practice) get to the point where I'm creating beautiful works of art out of my UI. Sometimes I see designs that are just so fantastic - this has happened so many times in history that those designs become fads to standards and then 'old' (see Flat UI). I think a designer's job is equally hard, and when there is no innovation or problem solving (you're not creating something unique - following the fad?) then it's along the same lines of using pre-existing software and making only small changes to it to make it useable for you (Wordpress plugins and themes).

TL;DR: Good designers who create new or unique works are different from designers who follow the trends and make similar/copy-cat designs. Just as a programmer who uses pre-existing software is different from someone who is building one from scratch.

Re: Why you should move that button 3px to the left

#60

Post by exizt88 »

hrktb wrote: post #56
exizt88 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really wrong, and the arrogant tone doesn't help a bit. The truth is that a designer who spends 100% of his time doing design will definitely be better at design than a designer who spends 50% time designing and 50% time developing. These are two very different skill sets (even though their fundamentals may be closer). Anyway, a good designer's decision to move something 3px to the left should be respected (b…

I think you need to define 'design'. If you mean beautiful mockups than will win a contract with a client and that's all, perhaps your 100% photoshop person will be the best suited. If you mean building an interface acknowledging harmony of the UX, the user and clients needs, the medium, the strengths and weaknesses of the platform it will be built onto, the project budget and the maintenance afterwards, a 50% person…

If it's such a big deal, just say no. I think the article would, too, argue "why you shouldn't move that button 3px to the left if it makes you rebuild the whole screen".
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