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Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

#51

Post by seanmcdirmid »

guelo wrote: post #17

China kicking out Google doesn't seems so crazy now. The American government is a worldwide aggressor that cannot be restrained. All defenses must be put up in an attempt to stop it. As a side benefit China has fostered a large homegrown internet industry which many other countries lack. Services like Baidu and Sina Weibo are more than acceptable. Europe is more than capable of doing the same and hopefully with less…

China didn't kick out Google, Google left. Google is not even blocked like Twitter and Facebook are (though plus and youtube are blocked). The Chinese government is 100x more aggressive than the US government when it comes to monitoring internal Internet activities.

As a side non-benefit of being protected from international services, China's homegrown internet industry is unable to innovate and compete outside of China, where their international competition has no such disadvantage. Services like Baidu and Sina Weibo are just acceptable local copies of successful international services. Europe is capable of becoming like China, but would be crazy to go down that route.

Re: Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

#52

Post by a_bonobo »

jkrems wrote: post #41
kryptiskt wrote: post #15

European governments haven't earned our trust any more than the US government. The adversary may vary, but the network is the same hostile environment and should be treated with the same caution.

I would say that at least the German government has a better track record in consumer/privacy protection. Far from perfect obviously, but better.

Germany is part of the Five Eyes/Nine Eyes/UKUSA network [1], which was established so that the respective intelligence communities can share data. There is at least one of the US' Echelon stations in Germany [2].

I would wager that Germany would intercept the majority of traffic in this "Europe network" and then give the stuff to the US. Nothing would change.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

Re: Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

#53

Post by waps »

guelo wrote: post #17

China kicking out Google doesn't seems so crazy now. The American government is a worldwide aggressor that cannot be restrained. All defenses must be put up in an attempt to stop it. As a side benefit China has fostered a large homegrown internet industry which many other countries lack. Services like Baidu and Sina Weibo are more than acceptable. Europe is more than capable of doing the same and hopefully with less…

For the Chinese government this argument may hold some water. I do think that for the Chinese people this is very much a negative though.

When choosing whether you want the American government to have some monitoring power over you or the Chinese government, the answer is beyond obvious [1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-education_through_labour

Re: Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

#54

Post by waps »

pstuart wrote: post #39
weinzierl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You comment made me curious how many US army bases there are on German ground. More than I expected: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_inst... (Not saying they are used by the NSA.)

But they're important to protect the US from Nazis! Do I have to go Godwin on you so you realize how vital this is?

Initially, they were. Then they became important to protect Europe from the Soviets. I would argue that to some extent they're still fulfilling that function.

But please make no mistake. The extreme right is still popular in Germany and generally in northwest Europe, in some places commanding ~35% of the votes. Far left (meaning having political positions not even American "communists" would support) commands another 10-15% of the vote, even in East Germany where, let's just say that a lot of the population has good reason to distrust them.

Re: Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

#55

Post by mpyne »

strictfp wrote: post #30

Shitshitshitshitshit! I knew that this would be the knee-jerk reaction of politicians. If this happens, we will get borders on the internet. And if there is anything which can wreck the internet, borders are it. Now for the first time I'm really scared about the future of the internet. Let's get involved politically now and educate these people about the foundations of the internet, and try to keep it a neutral piece…

> If this happens, we will get borders on the internet. And if there is anything which can wreck the internet, borders are it.

No offense but this is exactly the option I'd be recommending to U.S. policymakers (i.e. having a "Balkanization Button") if it really comes to gutting the NSA.

Yes, the thing that makes the Internet so good for us is the open borders, but it's also the thing that makes it so powerful for countries that don't have to abide by pesky little things like Western cultural morals.

In no other realm does a potential adversary gain access to a military capability and the Western world opts to leave itself defenseless. And make no mistake, cyber is thought to be a military capability for the likes of Russia (just ask Estonia or Georgia), China, and North Korea.

If pacifism is to be the answer in response to this threat, then that simply means that defense will have to come by different means, i.e. by "battening down the hatches" and sealing off foreigners from domestic networks. If we can seek out threats on networks then the second-best option is to try and keep our networks from being used against us.

Similar logic will then apply in the E.U. and other nations.

> The internet was international and neutral from the start, don't bring your territorial thinking here!

It was hardly neutral from the start, the Internet developed from things like NSFNET and MILNET. Don't be silly.

And either way, "we didn't start the fire"... the NSA didn't invent cyber hacking, as they could only have been hacking themselves at first. Go read "The Cuckoo's Egg" by Cliff Stoll if you want to see where the first wave of state-sponsored hacking started.

Re: Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

#56

Post by mpyne »

fidotron wrote: post #7

The substance is more interesting than the headline: "Above all, we'll talk about European providers that offer security for our citizens, so that one shouldn't have to send emails and other information across the Atlantic" i.e. government support of alternatives to the US owned networked services that enable the data leakages, not low level infrastructure improvements. Whether or not such a thing is likely to work,…

You're right U.S. companies would not be happy, but in fairness to the Europeans this is exactly the direction that I'd said they need to head in if they truly want no possibility of their data being handled in ways unsupported by European law.

Anything else would be like Google opening an office in France and expecting to comply with American labor laws instead of French ones.

Re: Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

#57

Post by adventured »

guelo wrote: post #17

China kicking out Google doesn't seems so crazy now. The American government is a worldwide aggressor that cannot be restrained. All defenses must be put up in an attempt to stop it. As a side benefit China has fostered a large homegrown internet industry which many other countries lack. Services like Baidu and Sina Weibo are more than acceptable. Europe is more than capable of doing the same and hopefully with less…

There's some comedy in referring to China as though it weren't one of the top countries when it comes to digital crime sponsored by the state. The only debate to be had is whether the NSA or the Chinese Government is worse in that regard, and that would be a pointless debate, they're both vile.

Re: Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

#58

Post by nitrogen »

mpyne wrote: post #55
strictfp wrote: post #30

Shitshitshitshitshit! I knew that this would be the knee-jerk reaction of politicians. If this happens, we will get borders on the internet. And if there is anything which can wreck the internet, borders are it. Now for the first time I'm really scared about the future of the internet. Let's get involved politically now and educate these people about the foundations of the internet, and try to keep it a neutral piece…

> If this happens, we will get borders on the internet. And if there is anything which can wreck the internet, borders are it. No offense but this is exactly the option I'd be recommending to U.S. policymakers (i.e. having a "Balkanization Button") if it really comes to gutting the NSA. Yes, the thing that makes the Internet so good for us is the open borders, but it's also the thing that makes it so powerful for cou…

We don't have to sever all the transoceanic cables to protect sensitive networks from foreign intrusion, we just have to stop plugging them into the Internet in the first place.

Re: Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

#59

Post by justin66 »

waps wrote: post #54
pstuart wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they're important to protect the US from Nazis! Do I have to go Godwin on you so you realize how vital this is?

Initially, they were. Then they became important to protect Europe from the Soviets. I would argue that to some extent they're still fulfilling that function. But please make no mistake. The extreme right is still popular in Germany and generally in northwest Europe, in some places commanding ~35% of the votes. Far left (meaning having political positions not even American "communists" would support) commands another…

> Initially, they were. Then they became important to protect Europe from the Soviets. I would argue that to some extent they're still fulfilling that function.

I've got some news for you about the Soviets. I hope you're sitting down...

Re: Data protection: Angela Merkel proposes Europe network

#60

Post by mpyne »

nitrogen wrote: post #58
mpyne wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this happens, we will get borders on the internet. And if there is anything which can wreck the internet, borders are it. No offense but this is exactly the option I'd be recommending to U.S. policymakers (i.e. having a "Balkanization Button") if it really comes to gutting the NSA. Yes, the thing that makes the Internet so good for us is the open borders, but it's also the thing that makes it so powerful for cou…

We don't have to sever all the transoceanic cables to protect sensitive networks from foreign intrusion, we just have to stop plugging them into the Internet in the first place .

Which is, itself, Balkanization. It also entirely defeats the idea of having a domestic Internet in the first place. Do you not know of anyone who VPNs into their work intranet over the public Internet? Even the government does that.
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