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PayPal chief reams employees: Use our app or quit

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Re: PayPal chief reams employees: Use our app or quit

#51

Post by bashcoder »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #38
panarky wrote: post #21

So doing your job isn't enough for PayPal. Now you have to show loyalty. And enthusiasm. And hack on the product in your free time. And install your employer's app on your personal devices. An app that knows your personal financial details, tracks your fine-grained location, reads your personal contacts and SD storage, and can transmit all of this to your employer[0]. Will PayPal also go above and beyond the employme…

Yep, I understand why a company would want employees who do all those things. Employees who do all those things is a great signal that you are on the right track, and some of those things in and of themselves will produce benefits for your product, sure. But you can't get those things just by ordering your employees to do them. Even if you somehow get your employees to pretend to have loyalty and enthusiasm by orderi…

Well said. It's like demanding that someone love you, instead of working to be more loveable.

Re: PayPal chief reams employees: Use our app or quit

#52

Post by greenyoda »

panarky wrote: post #21

So doing your job isn't enough for PayPal. Now you have to show loyalty. And enthusiasm. And hack on the product in your free time. And install your employer's app on your personal devices. An app that knows your personal financial details, tracks your fine-grained location, reads your personal contacts and SD storage, and can transmit all of this to your employer[0]. Will PayPal also go above and beyond the employme…

I agree with you 100% that a company is stepping way over the line when it tells employees what software they should install on their personal devices, how they should pay for their own purchases, etc. (And after treating his employees like he owns them, the CEO will whine about how hard it is to find good developers.)

That said, people who create intrusive software to track the intimate details of their users are hypocrites if they'd object to being tracked by that same software themselves.

Re: PayPal chief reams employees: Use our app or quit

#53

Post by greenyoda »

bigtunacan wrote: post #48
jrochkind1 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, employees that use their own product generally a great and encouraging sign. But what if you find out that the employees at company A use their own product only because the CEO ordered them to do it or get fired, and they actually hate the product themselves too? No longer quite so encouraging. They are mistaking the indicator for the thing indicated. Dogfooding is an indicator of quality and commitment when it…

I think you are missing the point of the "eat your own dog food" mantra that originated from Joel Spolsky. No one wants to literally eat dog food as we all imagine it would taste terrible. The same holds true for your product. That product you have been working on for your company, whoever it may be, is total, utter, garbage, and if you have to eat it everyday you will realize it tastes terrible. The more you use the…

It didn't originate with Joel Spolsky. "Eating your own dogfood" was already a meme at Microsoft when Spolsky arrived there (1991), and that's where he probably picked it up from. Wikipedia attributes it to Paul Maritz:

"In 1988, Microsoft manager Paul Maritz sent Brian Valentine, test manager for Microsoft LAN Manager, an email titled 'Eating our own Dogfood', challenging him to increase internal usage of the company's product. From there, the usage of the term spread through the company."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_your_own_dog_food#Origi...

Re: PayPal chief reams employees: Use our app or quit

#54

Post by runamok »

If they didn't use dark patterns (http://darkpatterns.org/) such as always defaulting to your bank account instead of your credit card (which inconveniences me but makes them more money) maybe more of their people would use paypal.

This regards the web payment flow experience and not necessarily the app.

Re: PayPal chief reams employees: Use our app or quit

#55

Post by jobu »

forgottenpass wrote: post #42
jobu wrote: post #11

The title of the article seems like linkbait. What Marcus said was: "In closing, if you are one of the folks who refused to install the PayPal app or if you can’t remember your PayPal password, do yourself a favor, go find something that will connect with your heart and mind elsewhere." Pretty similar message, but the title makes him sound like an asshole when the actual text seems more reasonable. If you're not will…

Pretty similar message, but the title makes him sound like an asshole when the actual text seems more reasonable. It doesn't make him sound any better. Loyalty is for cults, not multinationals. A job can be just a means to an end, and there is nothing wrong with that. Trying to get your employees emotionally invested is just a way to increase productivity while keeping labor costs down. If you're not willing to use t…

> A job can be just a means to an end, and there is nothing wrong with that. Trying to get your employees emotionally invested is just a way to increase productivity while keeping labor costs down.

I worked in advertising for over a decade, so I can definitely agree with some jobs being a means to an end, but I disagree about the purpose of getting employees emotionally invested. In my experience people that are emotionally invested do better work than people that don't give a shit about anything more than a paycheck. They suggest improvements and argue with coworkers about how features should work because they understand the product and care that it succeeds.

> When did being in your products' target market become a precondition to being good at your job?

That may be a valid argument for many jobs, but I can't imagine who isn't part of PayPal's target demographic.

Re: PayPal chief reams employees: Use our app or quit

#56

Post by aresant »

mikeryan wrote: post #9

This is really one of those things that look, in principal, to be a simple fix. "Why are our employees not eating our own dog food". The part he's missing is the question, "Why aren't our employees so passionate about our product that they use it constantly in an effort to make it better?". He's missing a deeper morale issue, and compounding it with his attitude.

PayPal's mobile payment strategy is incredibly important to PayPal's future.

Here's the quote specific to the "use our own app":

"It’s been brought to my attention that when testing paying with mobile at Cafe 17 last week, some of you refused to install the PayPal app. . . everyone at PayPal should use our products. . . That’s the only way we can make them better, and better."

He's asking employees to use the new app to help beta test on the PayPal campus. (1)

So that he, and the team responsible, can improve the product to win.

He gives a few illustrations of high-morale employees "hacking coke machines" etc.

And then closes by saying "If you are one of the folks that refused . . . go find something that will connect with your heart and mind elsewhere"

I get that the tone is passionate and angry.

But I feel like there's a balance that needs to be struck vs. your comment.

Sometimes "morale" issues can be improved by letting people who are too far checked out go their own way.

(1) Cafe 17 is in the PayPal HQ (1) https://www.facebook.com/events/181056035410307/?ref=22

Re: PayPal chief reams employees: Use our app or quit

#57

Post by mgkimsal »

sophacles wrote: post #37
mgkimsal wrote: post #34

"some of you refused to install the PayPal app" They may have some legitimate concerns about what the software actually does, records about them, etc. I'm not saying it's necessarily right or wrong, but there may be more at play than just "I hate working here - this sucks". There are some things I probably can't install, as my primary device is still on ios5. Would I penalized for not upgrading my whole device just t…

One of the "more at play" things I could imagine: I don't want my employer to know about how I choose to spend my money. It's not their business, and having my employer have such a detailed understanding of my personal life is not remotely desirable. It's like forcing employees to give social media access to you, but even more invasive.

Excellent point - should have been a top-level response. If I worked at a bank, I might choose to keep my money there, but I might choose to bank somewhere else for any myriad reasons, and should not be punished for it. If I worked for Fidelity, I might want to keep an IRA with Vanguard - again, should not be punished.

For a CEO to not grasp the ramifications of having access to employees' financial records - or perhaps not caring - shows a disturbing side to this man. I would strongly suspect he doesn't use paypal for everything he purchases.

Re: PayPal chief reams employees: Use our app or quit

#58

Post by mynewwork »

jobu wrote: post #55
forgottenpass wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty similar message, but the title makes him sound like an asshole when the actual text seems more reasonable. It doesn't make him sound any better. Loyalty is for cults, not multinationals. A job can be just a means to an end, and there is nothing wrong with that. Trying to get your employees emotionally invested is just a way to increase productivity while keeping labor costs down. If you're not willing to use t…

> A job can be just a means to an end, and there is nothing wrong with that. Trying to get your employees emotionally invested is just a way to increase productivity while keeping labor costs down. I worked in advertising for over a decade, so I can definitely agree with some jobs being a means to an end, but I disagree about the purpose of getting employees emotionally invested. In my experience people that are emot…

> That may be a valid argument for many jobs, but I can't imagine who isn't part of PayPal's target demographic.

Engineers who understand the privacy implications of installing and using the app?

Re: PayPal chief reams employees: Use our app or quit

#60

Post by rmc »

mgkimsal wrote: post #16
rmc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really wouldn't last long in court.

Perhaps just like they're not really a "bank", they could try to argue they're not really an "employer", and are really "paying" their workers, so they're not subject to normal behaviors.

Sure, they can claim that all they want. A judge would look at it for about 5 seconds and say "You're an employer." and that would be that.
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