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Middle class leaving San Francisco, census says

blog.sfgate.com

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Re: Middle class leaving San Francisco, census says

#51

Post by anovikov »

klipt wrote: post #45
waterlesscloud wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Upper class is people other than us." Go ahead, enter your household income here, find out where you really fall. http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2013/09/what-is-yo... Hint- if you're a techie in SF, you're reaaaaallll near the top.

US rank isn't very informative though. It doesn't take into account cost of living, or (assuming they're using pre-tax salary) even the difference in state taxes. A comfortable salary in Houston would be much less comfortable in San Francisco because you're suddenly paying 10% of your income to state taxes and paying 4x as much rent.

Correct. Most of people who are statistically upper class (meaning '1%') are living in much pricier places so they don't really feel so upper.

Re: Middle class leaving San Francisco, census says

#52

Post by barry-cotter »

eaurouge wrote: post #50
DanBC wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it's bizarre that it is more true for the US? EDIT: accidentally downvoted you. Sorry.

I don't think it's more true in the US. It's easier to get into the best universities in the US than it is in the UK. If you manage to make it , (for the most part) no one cares who your parents or grand parents were. In the UK these things matter to the point of absurdity. In the UK, the system was rigged centuries ago; here in the US our rigged system is still very much in its infancy, relatively speaking of course…

I'm pretty sure the US super elite schools (HYPS) do not cover as much of the population as the UK super elite schools (Oxbridge). I believe it's something like 1-2% for the UK and 0.4% for the US. I may misremember the components (i.e. it may be for merely elite schools, like the Russell Group or the rest of the Ivy League plus MIT and Cal Tech etc.)

Super elite term taken from Lauren Rivera's "Ivies, Extracurriculars, and Exclusion"

Re: Middle class leaving San Francisco, census says

#53

Post by entendre »

1945 wrote: post #22
sillysaurus2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$75k in San Fran isn't upper middle class.

That's for sure. Pulling a figure out of thin air, but with an understanding of the cost of living (I live in the area), I'd say upper-middle begins at around $150+.

Have fun commuting from Oakland or living with 4 bros on 100k. Middle class is, "can I have a kid comfortably?"

Re: Middle class leaving San Francisco, census says

#54

Post by 3pt14159 »

saalweachter wrote: post #9

Once again, the income range quoted in the article seems to correspond to the Thompson & Hickey 2005 definition of "Lower middle class". Mostly likely the people moving in to replace the displayed Lower-middle-classers are Upper-middle-classers making $75,000-$250,000, with only a sprinkling of Upper-classers (aka the 1%). So once again pitting the middle against itself... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_middle_…

Some areas are going to be more dense with upper middle class than other. Some people are going to earn more than others. If San Fran hadn't stopped itself from growing, it would have plenty of room for both the upper and lower middle class, like Toronto does. Economics isn't a war between the haves and the have nots, it's a manner to allocate resources. We should be focused on increasing production and efficiency, not on making sure everyone in life is equal. That will never happen.

Re: Middle class leaving San Francisco, census says

#55

Post by __xtrimsky »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #25
anovikov wrote: post #21

I think it's some definition of 'middle class' coming from the 1970s and never inflation-adjusted since then. A person making $35K is anything but a middle class in every place i seen, let alone Silicon Valley. Maybe, a lower middle in totally clapped out East European countries like Ukraine.

You can live middle-classly on 40-60k in most of America still. Techies seem to be anxious to claim middle-class status, but if you're in a 6-figure household family, you're still pushing upper class compared to nearly anywhere. And the statistical fact is that if you're $250 k in the US in household income, you are in fact the 1%.

130k here, I feel lower middle class.

I can't buy a house in NY. I'll have to move upstate for that. I have only one car, second car would be a little bit hard.

Re: Middle class leaving San Francisco, census says

#56

Post by kaonashi »

spikels wrote: post #17
kaonashi wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can accommodate (or fail to), but most of the driving factors here originate from the private sector.

Bullshit! The private sector is the same in the places the SF middle class are moving to. It's the selfish, short sighted SF government that's causing this.

Tech companies dumping tons of money into the real estate market is _not_ a government generated problem.

Re: Middle class leaving San Francisco, census says

#57

Post by spikels »

kaonashi wrote: post #56
spikels wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit! The private sector is the same in the places the SF middle class are moving to. It's the selfish, short sighted SF government that's causing this.

Tech companies dumping tons of money into the real estate market is _not_ a government generated problem.

Wow! Hiring people and paying them well is a problem?

SF has severely restricted supply for decades with some of the most restrictive planning and building codes in the US. In SF anyone can force a hearing on a building permit - after planning review, neighbor notice, hearings appeals, etc. This is unheard of anywhere else and is why it takes years to build new housing. Then there is the rent control ordinance that stopped new apartment building for a decade and keeps thousands of units vacant today.

Re: Middle class leaving San Francisco, census says

#58

Post by kaonashi »

spikels wrote: post #57
kaonashi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech companies dumping tons of money into the real estate market is _not_ a government generated problem.

Wow! Hiring people and paying them well is a problem? SF has severely restricted supply for decades with some of the most restrictive planning and building codes in the US. In SF anyone can force a hearing on a building permit - after planning review, neighbor notice, hearings appeals, etc. This is unheard of anywhere else and is why it takes years to build new housing. Then there is the rent control ordinance that s…

It causes problems for the middle class being priced out of the market, yes. How is dropping rent controls supposed to anything but exacerbate that problem?

Re: Middle class leaving San Francisco, census says

#59

Post by spikels »

kaonashi wrote: post #58
spikels wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow! Hiring people and paying them well is a problem? SF has severely restricted supply for decades with some of the most restrictive planning and building codes in the US. In SF anyone can force a hearing on a building permit - after planning review, neighbor notice, hearings appeals, etc. This is unheard of anywhere else and is why it takes years to build new housing. Then there is the rent control ordinance that s…

It causes problems for the middle class being priced out of the market, yes. How is dropping rent controls supposed to anything but exacerbate that problem?

Price controls, like rent control, have the well know effect of reducing supply. Along with extremely restrictive building policies, SF housing supply has become inflexible and is unable to keep up with demand thus prices will go up. This is exacerbated by the various low income housing policies which also reduce the supply of market priced housing that the middle class occupies.

This was entirely predictable. There is no free lunch. You can't have cheap housing for some without raising the price for everyone else. SF is just a particularly extreme example.

BTW - Don't worry about rent control going away anytime soon - we are locked in politically. And planning restrictions are unlikely to ease either. So expect continued above inflation price/rent increases and a slow exodus of the middle class. Due to the poor schools we have already lost many families.

Re: Middle class leaving San Francisco, census says

#60

Post by davidjnelson »

entendre wrote: post #53
1945 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's for sure. Pulling a figure out of thin air, but with an understanding of the cost of living (I live in the area), I'd say upper-middle begins at around $150+.

Have fun commuting from Oakland or living with 4 bros on 100k. Middle class is, "can I have a kid comfortably?"

Exactly. Middle class in San Francisco is $250k-$500k. These type of articles are so out of touch with the reality on the ground it's ridiculous. 1 bedroom apartments with a washer and dryer, no mold, no neighbors cigarette smoke, and two parking spots _start_ at $4k per month. And that's after taxes.
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