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Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

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Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#51

Post by thecoffman »

aliston wrote: post #5

St. Louis is cheap, but it's cheap for a reason. If you think 6th and Market is bad, take a stroll through East St. Louis. It has the 3rd highest murder rate in the country. Violent crime is on the rise. [1] Basically, it's one of the most dangerous cities in the country. If that sort of thing doesn't bother you, then you'd probably be better off just moving your startup to Oakland and maintaining a connection to the…

East St. Louis is a different city, across the Mississippi river and in a different state than St. Louis.

St. Louis has taken its share of knocks over the years like many Midwestern cities, but those crime statistics are not indicative of the normal experience here.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#52

Post by thecoffman »

ashwinaj wrote: post #32
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #6

Right now it is noon in St. Louis and 19 degrees. Right now it is 10:00 in SF and 53 degrees. I think weather plays a large part in why people like to live in the Bay Area. Many refer to the high cost of living here as the "sun tax." As I sit in my office wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I can't even fathom living in St. Louis.

I would also add that people the bay area in general, have a "let's get it done" attitude. In the south and mid west people are a lot more laid back and generally more interested in football, Bud light/Miller light/Coors light and liberal bashing rather than putting in all-nighters. It was an eye opening change when I moved to the SF bay area. I maybe an exception to the stereotypical software engineer, but I work be…

Wow, not only is this an entirely ignorant and untrue stereotype; it implies that putting in all-nighters for your job is a good thing which I think its fairly universally regarded as untrue.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#53

Post by thecoffman »

slm_HN wrote: post #23
carsongross wrote: post #2

> If you’re trying to bootstrap, being based in San Francisco is awful. Especially if you have a family. I rented a four bedroom house in a great neighborhood in Sacramento that was a bike ride from Midtown for $2900/mo. We ended up buying a bigger house in the same neighborhood for even less per month. No commute, food is cheap, etc. The cost savings are enormous, and I'm sure it's more expensive than St. Louis... Y…

I know this isn't exactly the best metric, but the demand for programmers in St. Louis seems very low. When I look at Craigslist I see a couple Java jobs, a couple PHP jobs and even one godforsaken VB.net job. Even Jeff Atwood doesn't use VB.net. So I'm doubtful that it would be easier to keep the contracts coming in while in St. Louis.

As a coder living in St. Louis, I can say that this hasn't been my experience at all. There is an exceptionally high demand for coders around here. Barely a week goes by without someone trying to poach good programmers. Its not necessarily all sexy startups, but there is an excellent market for programmers in general.

We have a fairly good startup scene (though obviously nothing on SF) and a large number of more traditional corporate employers of programmers like Express Scripts, Monsanto, Wells Fargo, Scottrade, Ameren, Charter, Anheuser Busch, Boeing, and Northrop Grumman. There is also an exceptionally active biotechnology scene here.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#54

Post by dkl »

timr wrote: post #18

The current San Francisco influx is unsustainable. If you're somewhere else in the world and thinking about coming here to do a startup, I wish I could convince you to change your mind. San Francisco is incredibly expensive. Rents have shot up by ~50% since 2008, office space is following the same trend, and competition for (even mediocre) programmers is intense. Worse, a lot of the cultural diversity that made San F…

Rents have shot up by ~50% since 2008

More than that. Rents for apartments have doubled in the last year in Oakland, says my friend who owns a lot of diverse properties in the East Bay, so you know it's much worse in SF.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#55

Post by ashwinaj »

thecoffman wrote: post #52
ashwinaj wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also add that people the bay area in general, have a "let's get it done" attitude. In the south and mid west people are a lot more laid back and generally more interested in football, Bud light/Miller light/Coors light and liberal bashing rather than putting in all-nighters. It was an eye opening change when I moved to the SF bay area. I maybe an exception to the stereotypical software engineer, but I work be…

Wow, not only is this an entirely ignorant and untrue stereotype; it implies that putting in all-nighters for your job is a good thing which I think its fairly universally regarded as untrue.

Well you better read my post again. I said "generally", not all of them are like that. Also the assumption is if you're putting all-nighters there is some reward in the end (money, stocks, recognition etc.). IMO I get more done during all-nighters than during the day and I'm not the only one in my team who does that.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#56

Post by thecoffman »

ashwinaj wrote: post #55
thecoffman wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, not only is this an entirely ignorant and untrue stereotype; it implies that putting in all-nighters for your job is a good thing which I think its fairly universally regarded as untrue.

Well you better read my post again. I said "generally", not all of them are like that. Also the assumption is if you're putting all-nighters there is some reward in the end (money, stocks, recognition etc.). IMO I get more done during all-nighters than during the day and I'm not the only one in my team who does that.

Saying "generally" doesn't make it not ignorant or not a stereotype - in fact I'm pretty sure its just the opposite. "Generally, people in the midwest are beer swilling, liberal bashing layabouts" is pretty much the definition of a stereotype...

There is certainly nothing wrong with working at a time of day which is most productive for you, but the implication was that midwesterners were generally unwilling to put in a bunch of extra hours to "get it done." Not that they frowned upon people who liked to work at night.

I would argue, pretty strongly, that the culture of "kill yourself working a billion hours a week for your startup" is unhealthy physically, socially and mentally. Sure there is an outside chance that you hit it big and get fabulously wealthy. In the mean-time you pass up tons of actual real-life salary, benefits and vacation time that are tangible, usable, and increase your quality of life today. (Not to mention an actual retirement account, which most startups seems to neglect.)

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#57

Post by [deleted] »

debt wrote: post #37
timr wrote: post #18

The current San Francisco influx is unsustainable. If you're somewhere else in the world and thinking about coming here to do a startup, I wish I could convince you to change your mind. San Francisco is incredibly expensive. Rents have shot up by ~50% since 2008, office space is following the same trend, and competition for (even mediocre) programmers is intense. Worse, a lot of the cultural diversity that made San F…

It is becoming quite homogenous here. There's just a ton of really wealthy, well-paid business/engineer types. I've heard varied reports on dating. Some friends are very successful, others no so much. This seems to be more a personal situation then dependent on the culture of the city as a whole. You just gotta get on that tinders or cupes or grindr if that's your thing and play the game just like any other city. It'…

[deleted]

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#58

Post by ashwinaj »

thecoffman wrote: post #56
ashwinaj wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you better read my post again. I said "generally", not all of them are like that. Also the assumption is if you're putting all-nighters there is some reward in the end (money, stocks, recognition etc.). IMO I get more done during all-nighters than during the day and I'm not the only one in my team who does that.

Saying "generally" doesn't make it not ignorant or not a stereotype - in fact I'm pretty sure its just the opposite. "Generally, people in the midwest are beer swilling, liberal bashing layabouts" is pretty much the definition of a stereotype... There is certainly nothing wrong with working at a time of day which is most productive for you, but the implication was that midwesterners were generally unwilling to put in…

We cannot have an honest conversation since whatever I say is pigeon-holed to a stereotype. You might as well live in the mid west for a while and find out for yourself vs SV. In life, no one hands you a bunch of money for nothing. No startup guarantees anything, I assume most people are fully grown adults who are able to make rational choices fit for them. You can make your own choices in life and live with it and take responsibility.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#59

Post by erikpukinskis »

[deleted] wrote: post #57
debt wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is becoming quite homogenous here. There's just a ton of really wealthy, well-paid business/engineer types. I've heard varied reports on dating. Some friends are very successful, others no so much. This seems to be more a personal situation then dependent on the culture of the city as a whole. You just gotta get on that tinders or cupes or grindr if that's your thing and play the game just like any other city. It'…

[deleted]

What you're missing is that when people say an area is "becoming increasingly Black" they usually are talking about it going from 0% to 5%, or from 5% to 10%. Parts of San Francisco (at least certain businesses) are moving towards 100% white. It's a fundamentally different phenomenon.

Re: Why I'm Moving My Business From San Francisco To St. Louis

#60

Post by bzalasky »

sabbatic13 wrote: post #34

The problem with these places is what happens, when you need to hire people to build your company. The tech world is full of impressionistic statements like 'they have a startup scene,' but when you start getting numbers on available talent, you'll see you're putting yourself in a bad position. To take an example where I have better data, people have commented on the vibrant and growing startup scene in Santiago, Chi…

St. Louis has a large creative/advertising industry relative to other similar cities, so there's a larger pool to hire from than you might think. Your point is still valid, and something that can only change with time.
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