The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs • Hacker News Board

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#51

Post by dobbsbob » Thu, Jan 23, 2014, 10:10 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #50

asmallfish wrote: post #6

The government gives harsher sentences to hackers than many rapists. This is because it is actually afraid of hackers. Hackers hold power that petty criminals do not. The sentences for hackers are completely ridiculous because they are created by fear.

Examples?

This guy got 5yrs for 2 rapes http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/21/ex-marine-serving-rape...

Gary McKinnon was looking at 70yrs. The guy who made credit card fraud sites and was busted in the carder.su op got 7yrs after pleading but was looking at life. Rape and hacking are impossible to compare though because usually a rape happens once, whereas charges are stacked a mile high for computer fraud because nobody steals one login or card they steal a db full of them which means multiple charges, so technically rape on the federal books is a larger sentence compared to 1 charge of fraud or trespassing.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#52

Post by snowwrestler » Thu, Jan 23, 2014, 10:11 PM UTC

Crito wrote: post #19

hansjorg wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original claim is outlandish and devoid of any perspective, but comparing this to the "War on Terror" is just mind boggling. You do realize that there's a world outside the US where the "War on Terror" has had some pretty devastating effects. Or was that a joke?

Oh fucking christ, I am not having the conversation in two places at once: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7110399 My comparison between Hacker Panic to the War on Terror is not meant to imply that a few teenagers getting sent to prison for decades is equivalent in any respect to raining missiles down on wedding parties. It is a statement about the motivation of the people driving it. It isn't motivated by fear…

The problem with the U.S. "War on Terror" is not that it is an irrational program that was trumped up to facilitate corruption.

The problem is that it is a program that was created rationally in response to a truly horrible set of terrorist attacks.

That is a problem because most U.S. citizens don't want to be corrupt. What they want is to serve a good cause, and be effective in doing so. The "War on Terror" gives them both. And that's a problem because it makes it much, much harder for people waging that "war" to perceive the tradeoffs they create, and the lines they cross.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#53

Post by sliverstorm » Thu, Jan 23, 2014, 10:19 PM UTC

dobbsbob wrote: post #51

sliverstorm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Examples?

This guy got 5yrs for 2 rapes http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/21/ex-marine-serving-rape... Gary McKinnon was looking at 70yrs. The guy who made credit card fraud sites and was busted in the carder.su op got 7yrs after pleading but was looking at life. Rape and hacking are impossible to compare though because usually a rape happens once, whereas charges are stacked a mile high for computer fraud because nobody stea…

What does what they were "looking at" matter one bit? I don't understand why the 70 years he was "looking at" matters at all, if he wasn't sentenced to 70 years.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#54

Post by Crito » Thu, Jan 23, 2014, 10:21 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #40

Crito wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not have any specific case in mind, and undoubtedly you are now going to nitpick at me and tell me that there are no cases like that. I meant it as a throw-away example of harm that could conceivably be caused by Hacker Panic to emphasis the absurd difference between the severity of Hacker Panic and the severity of the War on Terror . Just to make you happy though, here, I'll fix it: > "My comparison between Ha…

You said: "My comparison between Hacker Panic to the War on Terror is not meant to imply that a few teenagers getting sent to prison for decades is equivalent in any respect to raining missiles down on wedding parties." The observation that there may not be any teenagers that have spent a decade in custody, let alone several, is not a nitpick on that claim. By way of comparison, Kevin Mitnick, a high-profile serial-o…

Here, I'll fix it:

> "My comparison between Hacker Panic to the War on Terror is not meant to imply that a few teenagers being scolded by cops is equivalent in any respect to raining missiles down on wedding parties."

This is entirely non-material to the point I am making. Frankly, if anything, it strengthens it. You are nitpicking.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#55

Post by Crito » Thu, Jan 23, 2014, 10:26 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #52

Crito wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh fucking christ, I am not having the conversation in two places at once: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7110399 My comparison between Hacker Panic to the War on Terror is not meant to imply that a few teenagers getting sent to prison for decades is equivalent in any respect to raining missiles down on wedding parties. It is a statement about the motivation of the people driving it. It isn't motivated by fear…

The problem with the U.S. "War on Terror" is not that it is an irrational program that was trumped up to facilitate corruption. The problem is that it is a program that was created rationally in response to a truly horrible set of terrorist attacks. That is a problem because most U.S. citizens don't want to be corrupt. What they want is to serve a good cause, and be effective in doing so. The "War on Terror" gives th…

The War on Terror is an irrational response. The attacks presented an existential threat to the country only so far as we overreacted to the threats. Even if we assume that invasions of countries were a justified and rational response, we still invaded the wrong countries. The fear of terrorism was itself irrational, 4k people is a rounding error in the grand scheme of things, but humans are awful at evaluating risk.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#56

Post by tomphoolery » Thu, Jan 23, 2014, 10:31 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #7

This article makes an important point about the brokenness of CFAA sentencing, but it (or Wired's editors) do the point a disservice by making an absolutely hyperbolic claim. The "War On Drugs" has imprisoned literally millions of people, and done so in a fashion that is both racist (minorities are far more likely to be imprisoned for a drug offense) and classist (wealthy defendants are unlikely to be imprisoned for…

Yeah I would say once the "War on Hackers" begins to ruin people's lives on the order of 100,000s of people, now we're actually getting CLOSER to being similar to the War on Drugs.

But suggesting otherwise is analogous to stepping on an ant colony and calling that genocide.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#57

Post by alanh » Thu, Jan 23, 2014, 10:49 PM UTC

Written by one of weev’s lawyers. Weev, the absolute cyber-douche who threatened Kathy Sierra’s family and precipitated her years-long avoidance of Internet and speaking appearances. Who absoutely deserves punishment.

If the “crackdown on hackers” were remotely like the “war on drugs”, then should we suppose weev to be analogous to a mere user of crack cocaine who was racially targeted and unfairly handed an outsized jail sentence? No. weev is no victim.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#58

Post by fleitz » Thu, Jan 23, 2014, 10:53 PM UTC

It's not a new war on drugs, its the same old war on critical thinking.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#59

Post by dobbsbob » Thu, Jan 23, 2014, 10:53 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #53

dobbsbob wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guy got 5yrs for 2 rapes http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/21/ex-marine-serving-rape... Gary McKinnon was looking at 70yrs. The guy who made credit card fraud sites and was busted in the carder.su op got 7yrs after pleading but was looking at life. Rape and hacking are impossible to compare though because usually a rape happens once, whereas charges are stacked a mile high for computer fraud because nobody stea…

What does what they were "looking at" matter one bit? I don't understand why the 70 years he was "looking at" matters at all, if he wasn't sentenced to 70 years.

Because nobody goes to trial for computer fraud, not if the prosecutor is seeking 70 years so you are forced to bargain for 12-20yrs and yes there is a real possibility you will get all that time if you don't plea

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#60

Post by fleitz » Thu, Jan 23, 2014, 10:57 PM UTC

klez wrote: post #34

Could someone please help me understand how can changing a headline on some websites cause five-figures damages? Honest question, really. Every time I see articles about computer vandalism or hacking I see these big numbers and don't understand how they are calculated.

I can't comment for the specific headline case but quite frequently these are just made up numbers. Prosecutors make up whatever they can get away with...

Public companies are required to report damages over X but when you find their quarterlies after a hacking incident it lists damages See Sun & Kevin Mitnick. Either these companies are lying to the court, or they are lying to the SEC.