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The Feds Are Ready To Sell $25 Million of Bitcoin Seized From The Silk Road

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Re: The Feds Are Ready To Sell $25 Million of Bitcoin Seized From The Silk Road

#51
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they want the money. Same reason they auction off the cars of suspected drug dealers, instead of just handing them out at random.

You mean those police auctions that advertise how cheap you can get cars? Selling at the immediate price they can get in a very volatile vehicle is not 'handing them out at random'.

Cars at auctions are typically pretty damn cheap. That happens because there is risk for the buyer when buying a car at auction.

If cars at police auctions were unnaturally cheap, everyone would be making a killing with arbitrage. (To be clear, many people do, but as more people get in on that, prices at police auctions go up... the balance that is struck gets you relatively close to the legitimate value of a car at a police auction).

Trust me, they love that money. They use it to buy fun new toys for themselves. That's when the property itself isn't their new toy: http://www.clumsycrooks.com/media/files18/pictures/drug_deal...

Re: The Feds Are Ready To Sell $25 Million of Bitcoin Seized From The Silk Road

#53
post #39
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if they try to sell them in a trading venue. Anyone with the bankroll to buy that many probably understands how markets work.

Rereading my prior post, it was a little unclear. Let me expand on my prior point. The Bitcoin market is neither liquid or large enough to absorb 30k new coins and remain stable. That means the US government isn't going to get $850 per coin. The effects on the market will likely depend on how the coins are sold. Scenario 1: There is a single large buyer. Assuming the buyer and US goverment are smart, they will recogn…

You are absolutely correct on the price they get for them being dependent on how they are sold. The industry jargon for this is how you execute the buy or sell. One option is they could sell the bitcoins using a VWAP algorithm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volume-weighted_average_price

For all other asset classes VWAP execution is a thing and a common one at that. Basic idea is split your large order up into slices and sell small amounts during a given interval. Bitstamp & BTCE have 24 hour volume of ~18k bitcoins. As a fun aside, if you don't randomize your time slice someone like me will see what you're doing and move the market to screw you :).

Re: The Feds Are Ready To Sell $25 Million of Bitcoin Seized From The Silk Road

#54

Hold on they haven't found anyone guilty in a court yet have they?

In this case, there was no one to fight on behalf of the Silk Road or its funds because Ross Ulbricht says he isn't Dread Pirate Roberts and doesn't represent the site (though he is fighting to keep the 144,000 BTC found on his computer -- those haven't been forfeited yet).

The real losers here are the Silk Road users who just forfeited whatever they had sitting in the site's coffers. Even if someone made the unwise decision to come forward and say, 'I used the site legally and that's my money,' the feds could still say it was a site devoted mainly to illegal activity and so that argument is moot.

Re: The Feds Are Ready To Sell $25 Million of Bitcoin Seized From The Silk Road

#55
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civil forfiture doesn't require a criminal conviction. In fact there's hardly any process at all. Just one more twisted doctrine justified by the War on Drugs.

To expand on this, from wikipedia: "In civil forfeiture cases, the US Government sues the item of property, not the person; the owner is effectively a third party claimant. The burden is on the Government to establish that the property is subject to forfeiture by a "preponderance of the evidence." If it is successful, the owner may yet prevail by establishing an "innocent owner" defense. In civil cases, the owner nee…

You have to admit, whoever came up with that law was being pretty clever. If only they would use some of that cleverness to just send me a bill for my taxes.

Re: The Feds Are Ready To Sell $25 Million of Bitcoin Seized From The Silk Road

#56
post #45
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they have to get a conviction in order to permanently keep (or sell off) seized assets.

This whole process just seems incredibly weird to me. What happens if the person is found not guilty of anything criminal after all the assets are sold off? This seems like police state tactics, pardon my French.

The beneficial owner(s) can show up in court and assert a legitimate claim on the goods if so inclined. Often they are not so inclined, as the cash in question was found in proximity to bricks of cocaine or suchlike and staking a claim to the cash tends to suggest an incriminating connection to the contraband.

In this case there's abundant evidence of a criminal enterprise involving the sale of drugs, attempts to purchase the services of hitmen etc. etc. So 'Dread Pirate Roberts' only likely defense is to claim something along the lines of 3v1l H4x0rs taking over his computer for the last several years while he played minesweeper or suchlike, and disavow any awareness of of or custody over the money; otherwise he'd have to explain just how he came to be in possession of several $m of BTC that was sent to Silk Road.

This is interesting as an example of BTC's strength being a vulnerability. Suppose you were arrested in a warehouse with a pile of cash and numerous bricks of cocaine, AK-47s, etc. Of course the government would claim you're a drug dealer, but you could attempt to convince the court that you had won the money in Vagas/sold a great deal of pizza/whatever and been kidnapped by evil drug dealers on your way to the bank, only to wake up alone and confused next to your cash in the warehouse just before the cops arrived. An unlikely story to be sure, but there are many legal means through which you might come to possess a large stack of currency (and which might also provide you with a much-needed alibi, eg video of you winning big and leaving the casino only to be waylaid on the strip by masked bandits). Where BTC is concerned, though, the blockchain itself is proof that the money was sent to the receiving address given out by Silk Road in exchange for contraband, so the government has a prima facie case that it consists of revenue from a criminal enterprise.

Re: The Feds Are Ready To Sell $25 Million of Bitcoin Seized From The Silk Road

#57
It's not clear to me whether this drives the price up or down. Sure, naively, it's more supply therefore lower prices. However, it does lend an air of legitimacy to Bitcoin and will likely raise awareness as it gets played out on mainstream media.

In other words, it will likely affect both the supply of and demand for Bitcoin.

Re: The Feds Are Ready To Sell $25 Million of Bitcoin Seized From The Silk Road

#58

It's not clear to me whether this drives the price up or down. Sure, naively, it's more supply therefore lower prices. However, it does lend an air of legitimacy to Bitcoin and will likely raise awareness as it gets played out on mainstream media. In other words, it will likely affect both the supply of and demand for Bitcoin.

Well the government considers bitcoin to be a commodity and not a currency. So they're selling the commodity they seized, no different than selling a fleet of ferraris and armani suits seized in another drug raid.

Re: The Feds Are Ready To Sell $25 Million of Bitcoin Seized From The Silk Road

#59
post #50
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably. To understand price changes it's important to consider how they change. Price movements occur as a result of a buyer or seller aggressing into a market and submitting an order such that the parameters of the aggressor's order match the opposite sides unfilled orders. This process is typically referred to as order matching. If a buyer aggresses into the market and matches against unfilled sell orders the pri…

You seem like someone who knows something about markets and you accept that there are very few, if any, natural buyers of bitcoins, and that the price of bitcoin is largely driven by speculators. I'm just trying to understand how you think this thing doesn't end up at $0 some day in the not too distant future.

The only three events that could send bitcoin to $0 are, in my opinion, if people stop using it and decide that it's worthless, the encryption scheme or peer to peer network are some how compromised, or all nations simultaneously outlaw it. However the last one would only serve to send it near zero.

Consider if all governments outlaw it simultaneously. The market participants currently consist of free market type enthusiasts & hobbyists, rich celebrity speculators, drug dealers and cyber criminals. I think it is a fair assumption that most of the active traders are currently from the hobbyist & enthusiast category. Additionally when you consider that places like Silicon Valley and other hubs around the world have a large proportion tech savvy workers who make a lot more than subsistence wages, it's not too hard to see how some sort of speculative market could continue to lumber along without much reason for existence. Look at sports betting and horse racing.

If the government were to come out and drop the hammer, however, I think most of these people (myself included) would vanish. The volume would dry up and the only people left in the market would be criminals and people with a hard requirement for virtually untraceable digital currency, prison be damned. My opinion is that these people would continue to remain using it as a means of commerce and store of value provided that the underlying cryptography & p2p network remain sound and un-compromised. There are currently millions of bitcoin in existence so a price of near zero would probably satisfy the black market. How does $3 sound as a reasonable number that readers can use against me in the probable event that I turn out to be wrong 5 years from now?

Of course this all relies on the underlying cryptography and associated peer to peer network remaining sound and trustworthy. If a party is able to compromise the underlying encryption or execute a double spend by attacking the network then trust in bitcoin as a finite commodity would be irrevocably destroyed. No one would ever use it, thus a $0 price.

The utility of bitcoin is just too hard to ignore from a commerce perspective. It's taking away authority and power from banks to act as gate keepers to their countries finical & economic system and putting it in the hands of the people who engage in commerce themselves. I don't believe banks will cease to exist as some of bitcoin's most ardent supports hope it will, but the transaction costs for international business could drop substantially. Barring bad news on the legislative or technology front the only thing stopping bitcoin from gaining greater adoption is that too many people are psychologically fixated on an individual bitcoin. Bitcoin is sub divisible up to 8 decimal places, the vast majority of people who have heard about bitcoin that I have talked to do not realize this. Since the total number of bitcoins is fixed at 21 million this yields a total number of theoretical units of currency of 210 trillion. That's a pretty formidable island on which to create a base of trade on.

Re: The Feds Are Ready To Sell $25 Million of Bitcoin Seized From The Silk Road

#60
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole process just seems incredibly weird to me. What happens if the person is found not guilty of anything criminal after all the assets are sold off? This seems like police state tactics, pardon my French.

The beneficial owner(s) can show up in court and assert a legitimate claim on the goods if so inclined. Often they are not so inclined, as the cash in question was found in proximity to bricks of cocaine or suchlike and staking a claim to the cash tends to suggest an incriminating connection to the contraband. In this case there's abundant evidence of a criminal enterprise involving the sale of drugs, attempts to pur…

How much evidence is required to stake your claim to whatever goods were seized? "Innocent until proven guilty" is still a founding principle of the rule of law, although your arguments make sense if we don't consider that part of it. The US justice system has in many cases removed itself quite far from the ideal concepts of the rule of law, and I don't think this is a good thing.
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