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Money can buy happiness

economist.com

51–60 of 172 posts

Re: Money can buy happiness

#51
post #5
post #4

In regards to subjective happiness and income, I like to pose the question: Would you rather earn $80,000 and live in a neighbourhood of those earning $100,000, or would you rather earn $100,000 and live in a neighbourhood of those earning $80,000. Money and happiness is entirely subjective according to your environment.

I guess you mean: "Would you rather earn $800,000 and live in a neighbourhood of those earning $1,000,000, or would you rather earn $100,000 and live in a neighbourhood of those earning $80,000."

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see either this or the original even remotely as a difficult question.

Making 80% of the median income is completely within normal ranges; it seems to me it would be barely noticeable in both cases. On the other hand, the difference between US$100,000 and US$800,000 is gigantic, it's a complete change in lifestyle and security.

Seriously, does anyone here actually find either question to pose a true dilemma?

Re: Money can buy happiness

#52
People become acclimatised to 'new wealth'. One thing I learned from life experience, and then actually understood after studying Buddhist philosophy, is that it's very easy to enter a repetitive cycle of desire, some achievement, then more desire ... one yearns to make more money, makes it (via payrise or other successful project), gets used to having that money, wants more, makes more, and so on. The trick is to be satisfied / happy with what you have; it's not practical or very likely that your income will keep increasing 'forever'.

I can honestly state that I'm happier now making less money, not owning a house, nor having many of the trappings of 'success' that I had 10 years ago. I admit, however, some ill-placed desire to see if I might be happier now 'making money' than I was in the past; my healthier (IMO) life outlook might be simply as a result of more wisdom rather than less money.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#53
post #20
post #4

In regards to subjective happiness and income, I like to pose the question: Would you rather earn $80,000 and live in a neighbourhood of those earning $100,000, or would you rather earn $100,000 and live in a neighbourhood of those earning $80,000. Money and happiness is entirely subjective according to your environment.

Re-phrased: Would you rather make $100k in San Francisco, Pittsburgh, Miami, or Havana?

You could buy half of Havana on an income like that.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#54
post #38
post #3

The income scale is logarithmic, so the apparently linear lines that you see are actually curved. The returns in happiness per $ earned fall off significantly towards the top of the scale (which incidentally is capped at a fairly low $128,000). I don't really see how this new data contradicts the generally accepted view (mentioned in the article) that money increases happiness up to a point.

> I don't really see how this new data contradicts the generally accepted view (mentioned in the article) that money increases happiness up to a point. It doesn't - the title of the article and the interpretation provided with in is almost as misleading. They start off quickly by telling you about the 'Easterlin paradox' - that is what they have specifically found evidence against. i.e. 'more money makes you happier'…

"that more money makes you happier does not mean that any amount of money can make you as happy as you want"

And "more money" is not always the easiest or most available "life hack."

Re: Money can buy happiness

#55
post #41
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cynic in me is actually thinking it's interesting that the Scandanavian countries are left off the charts. They are usually touted as being amongst the happiest countries in the world, despite rather aggressive tax regimes to pay for it. Perhaps there is some cherry picking going on here? Either as propaganda to show that the US is the happiest, or to show that money equals happiness - which might not be true in…

The paper is linked, available here ( http://www.nber.org/papers/w18992.pdf?new_window=1 ) The graph they have included the 25 most populous countries, and is already a mess (lots of overlapping things). The Scandanavian countries didn't even make the cut on that one, the Economist probably took the ones that were the furthest apart. Maybe if all the Scandinavian countries fused together they could have made it?

Yeah, it'd be interesting if there was a study on population size vs. happiness. I imagine there would be an inverse correlation (smaller population, more happy). But whether you could isolate the cause would be a different matter.

For example: is Norway happy because they have a small population with massive, well-managed oil reserves to pay for their social services? Or are they happy because with a smaller population it's easier to gain a consensus vote for alternative ways of life (eg. social democracy)? Whereas say, the USA might always be stuck with a capitalist democracy because the large population is too big to influence easily.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#56
This is one of the big controversies in happiness economics.

I wonder if this effect (which directly contradicts Easterlin's findings that money has no effect on happiness past a certain point; here, they contend that there is no saturation point and that happiness evolves with the logarithm of income) could be somewhat due to the way they framed the question: "assume you are on a ladder of happiness with 10 steps, which one would you say you are on; then tell us how much you earn". It is widely known in behavioral economics that framing effects can have a huge effect on the way people respond ([1] [2], and so on), so I wouldn't be surprised than the way you ask people to evaluate their own happiness could explain at least part of the difference.

One of the conclusions of the Easterlin Paradox is that people care more about how much they earn compared to their neighbors than the actual amount. I feel like asking the question this way (imagining their happiness as a ladder with 10 steps, then thinking about their income) would directly lead to people implicitly internalizing this comparison in some kind of mental model where higher wealth = more happiness because they're trying to imagine what the best life possible could be: "ah I'm pretty happy right now, but if I had a twice as much money I think I would be happier though, so surely I can't be at the last step at the ladder. Actually, people who have twice as much than that should be even happier, so I'll add some steps on top and say I'm a 6 right now".

This sounds plausible to me because while the authors conclude there is no saturation point where income doesn't bring more happiness, this is a scale from 1 to 10 so surely some people must rate themselves a 10. What would those who earn twice as much as them think then? This solution could be that "being on top of the ladder" in people's mind is somehow conflated with "being on top of the income distribution", with all the other levels being computed relatively to that. In other terms, this framing may incite people to evaluate their happiness on a cross-sectional level, with Easterlin's Paradox being precisely that the income-happiness relationship exists only at the cross-sectional level but not at the longitudinal level.

The debate between the two models (Easterlin vs. Stevenson and Wolfers) has been a longstanding debate in happiness economics, with both sides having confirmed their findings with multiple data sets [3]. Maybe they're both right in a sense and the answer just depends on which definition of happiness you're asking people to evaluate themselves with (relative vs. on an absolute level)?

[1] http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/08/the...

[2] http://www.adsavvy.org/the-power-of-framing-effects-and-othe...

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easterlin_paradox

Re: Money can buy happiness

#57
post #56

This is one of the big controversies in happiness economics. I wonder if this effect (which directly contradicts Easterlin's findings that money has no effect on happiness past a certain point; here, they contend that there is no saturation point and that happiness evolves with the logarithm of income) could be somewhat due to the way they framed the question: "assume you are on a ladder of happiness with 10 steps, w…

> money has no effect on happiness past a certain point

The question is where that "certain point" is. Obviously happiness as measured on a finite scale must level off somewhere. But apparently "somewhere" is north of $128k/yr.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#58
post #52

People become acclimatised to 'new wealth'. One thing I learned from life experience, and then actually understood after studying Buddhist philosophy, is that it's very easy to enter a repetitive cycle of desire, some achievement, then more desire ... one yearns to make more money, makes it (via payrise or other successful project), gets used to having that money, wants more, makes more, and so on. The trick is to be…

Great point. The perspective you have for life, its what matters the most.. to do this research well they should detect different "life philosophies" or paradigms.. like "materialist type", "spiritual type", "dionisiac type", "apolinian type".. etc.. and also measure them in diferent points in life..

for instance, when younger is cool to be dionisiac.. you will be happy than.. but as you grow up.. different things matter most.. and or you will shift paradigms or you will get more unhapier with time. As a example of why do periodic research based in paradigms is important..

I think this is a complex matter to be viewed so trivially.. i dont think it proves much anything of value, in the way this research was conducted.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#59
post #57
post #56

This is one of the big controversies in happiness economics. I wonder if this effect (which directly contradicts Easterlin's findings that money has no effect on happiness past a certain point; here, they contend that there is no saturation point and that happiness evolves with the logarithm of income) could be somewhat due to the way they framed the question: "assume you are on a ladder of happiness with 10 steps, w…

> money has no effect on happiness past a certain point The question is where that "certain point" is. Obviously happiness as measured on a finite scale must level off somewhere. But apparently "somewhere" is north of $128k/yr.

No, the models proposed by Easterlin is a fundamentally different model of happiness economics than the one proposed by the researchers in the article (I updated my comment to flesh this out a bit). Basically, Easterlin's research hints that happiness increases with income only at a cross-sectional level (by comparing different people at a given time) but not at the longitudinal level (the same people wrt to their changes in income). What I'm saying is that maybe the way the question is framed has a fundamental effect on the way people would rate their happiness: "I rate 7/10 in Happiness vs. I'm happy but less than if I made double the money".

Re: Money can buy happiness

#60
post #26
post #3

The income scale is logarithmic, so the apparently linear lines that you see are actually curved. The returns in happiness per $ earned fall off significantly towards the top of the scale (which incidentally is capped at a fairly low $128,000). I don't really see how this new data contradicts the generally accepted view (mentioned in the article) that money increases happiness up to a point.

>I don't really see how this new data contradicts the generally accepted view (mentioned in the article) that money increases happiness up to a point. The article shows a logarithmic trend (i.e. doubling your income increases your happiness by a fixed amount), which is a straight line on the log plot. This insinuates ( if the trend continues, which is assumed from the results) that there is no point at which increase…

a 5% raise to someone making 1M dollars a year is about as significant to his life as a 5% raise for someone making 100k

Are you asserting that as fact? Where I live, someone making 100K is just getting by and not saving very much, even with the 5% raise (he certainly couldn't buy a house), whereas for someone making 1M, the extra $50K is "free" money.

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