SixCalifornias - initiative to create six states

Post by logfromblammo » Fri, Jan 03, 2014, 7:39 PM UTC

IvyMike wrote: post #42

logfromblammo wrote: post #14

Well, there is probably a greater cultural gap between San Francisco and Los Angeles than exists between Fargo and Little Rock. And I do have a preference for smaller and more responsive polities. But with my foil hat on, I realize that this is a play by non-Californians to manipulate national politics at the expense of the states. I'll only support it if they do California, Texas, Florida, Illinois, and New York at…

> cultural gap between San Francisco and Los Angeles I'm curious as to what you think this gap is.

Post by carsongross » Fri, Jan 03, 2014, 7:59 PM UTC

belluchan wrote: post #39

carsongross wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. We must preserve diversity... by crushing it under a single government. Power to the people... the people in Sacramento, am I right? Keep on trying to control the frame ("weird rich kids", "embarrassment", "hearts and minds"). We've reached peak centralization. The future is decentralization, subsidiary, and localized control.

I'm not sure you actually made a cogent argument I can respond to. The future is whatever we make it to be, and I don't like your vision of the future, and you aren't very good at convincing me to see the merits of what you want. What you want seems to be standard troglodyte big government is bad. This state has its many issues, but it also has many pluses and ruining its identity so you can build your libertarian dr…

Post by cafard » Fri, Jan 03, 2014, 8:58 PM UTC

nmeofthestate wrote: post #50

halostatue wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe locally—but nationally, it will reduce California’s voice to an infinitesimal one. I have a hunch that this is something that Koch allies and the RNC would love to see, as it would mean that a fairly-reliable blue state (with a lot of EVs) would become two smaller blue states and four red states. This makes even less sense than Prop 13, and will have a substantially worse effect.

(Disclaimer: I'm not American) Doesn't the US system over-represent smaller states? Seems like Californians would have more representatives in DC with these changes. On the second electoral-vote point, it sounds like the proposal would result in more proportional representation of Californians' political opinion which is surely a good thing.

Post by logfromblammo » Fri, Jan 03, 2014, 9:49 PM UTC

IvyMike wrote: post #54

logfromblammo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethnic makeup and degree of local homogeniety. Urban density. Use of public transportation. Historical points of interest. Dominant industries. Automobile culture. Access to green space. Consumer habits. Weather patterns. Air quality. Even the color of the surrounding landscape is different. Is it not clear to you that they just "feel" like completely different places, and that different kinds of people live there?

It is not clear to me that the difference between Downtown SF and Downtown LA is bigger than, say, Downtown SF and Hunter's Point. I mean, take someone from SF and have them live in Stockton for a month, and Fresno for a month, and LA for a month, and see which cultural divide is greatest.

Post by nmeofthestate » Fri, Jan 10, 2014, 3:46 PM UTC

cafard wrote: post #55

nmeofthestate wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Disclaimer: I'm not American) Doesn't the US system over-represent smaller states? Seems like Californians would have more representatives in DC with these changes. On the second electoral-vote point, it sounds like the proposal would result in more proportional representation of Californians' political opinion which is surely a good thing.

There would be six times as many senators, but presumably the number of representatives wouldn't change that much. The question might be "a good thing" for whom? American devotion to more proportional representation is and always has been somewhat qualified: the "gerry" in "gerrymander" remembers a signer of the Declaration of Independence...