Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#51

Post by poppysan » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:34 PM UTC

goggles99 wrote: post #10

> One of the spaces you might think would be a gateway for developers of color to enter the industry is through open source software development. You don't have to know somebody or have a degree in software engineering or get hired to participate in an open-source project. You can jump right in and start writing some code. This sounds like the author is resigned to the fact that colored people don't go to college. Is…

Except for the "colored people" comment I wholly agree with your take. As a black guy, there is little real understanding of the lack of barriers to becoming a programmer. This alone holds a lot of minorities back, without adding the myriad of other non tech related barriers. Stories such as this one seeks to help, but dont unfortunatly.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#52

Post by steveklabnik » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:35 PM UTC

sergiotapia wrote: post #50

steveklabnik wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, why would it be bad if the organizers of a conference made that mistake, but it's not bad if the attendees do? And yes, he means that people walk up to Randall and say "oh hey, Brian!" and vice versa. Really, really often. Sometimes repeatedly. They're different heights, they don't even look like each other at all. They're just usually the only two black guys there. It happens at more than just Ruby conf…

Because: a) They have never met the speaker personally. b) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_perception It has --nothing-- to do with being racist.

> a) They have never met the speaker personally.

Yes, this is "We met earlier in the day, I'm saying hello again." Or, like I said, a waiter that over the course of a multi-hour dinner and drinks, continually confuses the two. (EDIT: Whoops, when revising, I apparently deleted that story. I've seen this too.)

Furthermore, it doesn't happen with other people, at least not to the same degree. People even say "whoops, I confused you with the other black guy."

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#53

Post by steveklabnik » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:36 PM UTC

pmorici wrote: post #46

steveklabnik wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you type slurs into GitHub code search, you'll get over 10,000 results for many of them. Some of these are bad word filters, of course, but many are not.

Are any of them open source projects that anyone has ever heard of? I don't see any. Edit: why did you delete the links to the searches? It looked like literally 99% bad word lists, and a couple of random repos that probably only the comiter cared about. One of them was a dump of metadata from pirated files off The Pirate Bay.

I deleted them because occasionally I've seen accounts get hellbanned for using slurs, even when simply discussing the words. Figured I'd play it safe.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#54

Post by funkdat » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:37 PM UTC

"We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias . . . My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for."

"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#55

Post by maxerickson » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:37 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #44

theorique wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely a concern. What does it tell us, I wonder? I'm certainly not saying that there are no individual bigots in the OSS world. With thousands (millions?) of people you'll get all points of view, beneficial and toxic. A simple 'grep' of GitHub reveals a lot of crap, but are these influential projects? Do these projects have multiple committers who have signed off with pride that "my project contains 'n--…

You're moving the goalposts. At first you wanted specific instances, now you want specific instances in major projects.

theorique is perfectly willing to have a reasonable discussion about it. Chasing after them to take back the 'any' in the first sentence of the first post isn't going to accomplish a lot.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#56

Post by funkdat » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:38 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #32

goggles99 wrote: post #10

> One of the spaces you might think would be a gateway for developers of color to enter the industry is through open source software development. You don't have to know somebody or have a degree in software engineering or get hired to participate in an open-source project. You can jump right in and start writing some code. This sounds like the author is resigned to the fact that colored people don't go to college. Is…

> colored people Just for your own sake, in case you're not a native speaker: you shouldn't ever, ever say this. The words you use send social signals to others, and 'colored people' sounds really, really, really racist. This is distinct from 'person of color,' which is not. Use it instead. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOFKU_hwj2o

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#57

Post by theorique » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:41 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #44

theorique wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely a concern. What does it tell us, I wonder? I'm certainly not saying that there are no individual bigots in the OSS world. With thousands (millions?) of people you'll get all points of view, beneficial and toxic. A simple 'grep' of GitHub reveals a lot of crap, but are these influential projects? Do these projects have multiple committers who have signed off with pride that "my project contains 'n--…

You're moving the goalposts. At first you wanted specific instances, now you want specific instances in major projects.

What I mean is, anybody can create a GitHub project for any reason and post anything they want to their repo.

I don't consider a Freshman anonymously posting some obnoxious text on GitHub to be a part of the "Official Open Source Community (tm)" any more than a two year old finger painting is a professional artist.

If such a person turned up at PyCon or RubyConf and starting dropping n-bombs in public conversations, they would get a very fast education in what is acceptable public discourse in an open source community.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#58

Post by gaius » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:42 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #32

goggles99 wrote: post #10

> One of the spaces you might think would be a gateway for developers of color to enter the industry is through open source software development. You don't have to know somebody or have a degree in software engineering or get hired to participate in an open-source project. You can jump right in and start writing some code. This sounds like the author is resigned to the fact that colored people don't go to college. Is…

> colored people Just for your own sake, in case you're not a native speaker: you shouldn't ever, ever say this. The words you use send social signals to others, and 'colored people' sounds really, really, really racist. This is distinct from 'person of color,' which is not. Use it instead. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color

Coloured is a normal saying in South Africa and isn't an absurd politically correct euphemism for black. Before accusing others of racism, check your cultural imperialism.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#59

Post by mhurron » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:52 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #32

goggles99 wrote: post #10

> One of the spaces you might think would be a gateway for developers of color to enter the industry is through open source software development. You don't have to know somebody or have a degree in software engineering or get hired to participate in an open-source project. You can jump right in and start writing some code. This sounds like the author is resigned to the fact that colored people don't go to college. Is…

> colored people Just for your own sake, in case you're not a native speaker: you shouldn't ever, ever say this. The words you use send social signals to others, and 'colored people' sounds really, really, really racist. This is distinct from 'person of color,' which is not. Use it instead. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color

They're both ways of segregating the world in to people who are white and people who aren't. Saying one is appropriate and one isn't is just as stupid as saying blacks saying nigger is ok but it's horrible if anyone else says it.

Re: Why Isn't Open Source A Gateway For Coders Of Color?

#60

Post by dasil003 » Sun, Dec 08, 2013, 3:56 PM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #24

dasil003 wrote: post #6

I agree there are systemic issues of racism keeping blacks and latinos away from open source, but those issues have nothing to do with open-source per se. The free time issue is a big one. Access to computers at home in early childhood is probably even bigger. Consider Bill Gates getting computer access as a 13 year old in 1968, this was an incredible leg up, something which gradually broadened but when I was a kid i…

I think they will find it to be as close a meritocracy and "color-blind" environment as they will find in America today In this thread: Lies open source developers tell themselves. It's a sad joke Rubyconf attendees yearly confuse @bryanl and @daksis with each other, but it's happened at every Rubyconf i've been too (which is granted 3 but it's there). Open Source is a community, and communities are about who you kno…

You and goggles99 are coming at me from opposite ends of the racist ideologue spectrum, whereas my view is more nuanced.

Did I saw open-source was a panacea? No, I did not. I just said it was better than most other power structures in America. Why? Because code talks. Just because most engineers dislike political correctness and aren't doing anything to right structural inequities permeating our society doesn't mean they are racist. If they are passively supporting racist structures just by being white and operating within them, okay, that's a minor strike against them and feel free to slather on the white guilt, but it pales in comparison to the typical old boys club operations of most power structures in America.

Obviously open source has cliques and insiders as well, but that's based on a history of actual work and participation. I think the idea that a black man coming and jumping into open source is going to be at a disadvantage because of his race is not credible.