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Why PHP continues to thrive in the age of the PaaS

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Re: Why PHP continues to thrive in the age of the PaaS

#51

I don't do much web development, just a product once every year or so to play around with an idea. Always in PHP. A few months ago I was asked by a close friend to help them with a not-so-serious site. I decided that I'd use Rails, because, hey, I've heard nothing but good about it from HN and the like. I was absolutely blown away by how much work it required to get started. That, and how painful it was to explain to…

I don't know about you, but when I decide to do a project, I'll often use a new technology that I'll struggle with, because I want to learn and grow as a developer. Giving up because something is hard is a poor excuse. Period.

Re: Why PHP continues to thrive in the age of the PaaS

#52

I don't do much web development, just a product once every year or so to play around with an idea. Always in PHP. A few months ago I was asked by a close friend to help them with a not-so-serious site. I decided that I'd use Rails, because, hey, I've heard nothing but good about it from HN and the like. I was absolutely blown away by how much work it required to get started. That, and how painful it was to explain to…

I know the author emphasizing a point, but the steps that he's described end with two vastly different results:

1 - A php script on a server with a script with some code on it.

vs

2 - A full featured MVC framework, complete with version control, database integration, easy deployment, which is easy for other developer to jump into, etc etc

How can these two options be equated?

Re: Why PHP continues to thrive in the age of the PaaS

#53

> Why PHP continues to thrive in the age of the PaaS Most companies/clients, particularly outside of the SV/SF bubble, value a working solution over technical elegance. They're not irrationally ideological about programming languages, and they don't want to pay $120,000/year or $125/hour to a developer with two years of experience. Given the supply of developers of various skill levels who can build working solutions…

I agree that there is an absurd, nearly worshipful view of certain technologies in the "SV/SF bubble." That, however, is irrelevant. Your final comment regarding frameworks is also something I'd tend to agree with; frameworks are great for solving problems within the domain they're built for, but their applicability outside those domains is limited. This, however, is going to be an unpopular opinion amongst the PHP c…

> This, however, is going to be an unpopular opinion amongst the PHP crowd, but I can distill the rest of your comment into the following statement: "PHP is thriving because companies are cheap, don't care about quality as much as cost, and there is an over-abundant labor supply of poorly skilled, mainly self-taught PHP 'developers' who are willing to work for peanuts and get the job done to an adequate level." There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but trying to turn it on its head by implying developers skilled with, e.g. Ruby/Rails frameworks (see note below), are essentially overpaid and narrow-minded is just absurd.

That's an interesting reading of my comment. A less cynical reading might be that companies tend to:

1. Value cost-efficiency.

2. Understand that the constraints of time, cost and quality are all related and must be balanced based on business and project need.

3. Recognize that a smaller labor pool tends to increase cost and risk, sometimes unacceptably.

Most companies simply don't have the luxury of, without regard to cost and schedule, writing blank checks for development, demanding perfection (elegant code, the technologies du jour, premature optimization, etc.) and limiting their employee/contractor pool to rockstar engineers with CS degrees from top universities.

Re: Why PHP continues to thrive in the age of the PaaS

#55

I don't do much web development, just a product once every year or so to play around with an idea. Always in PHP. A few months ago I was asked by a close friend to help them with a not-so-serious site. I decided that I'd use Rails, because, hey, I've heard nothing but good about it from HN and the like. I was absolutely blown away by how much work it required to get started. That, and how painful it was to explain to…

I know the author emphasizing a point, but the steps that he's described end with two vastly different results: 1 - A php script on a server with a script with some code on it. vs 2 - A full featured MVC framework, complete with version control, database integration, easy deployment, which is easy for other developer to jump into, etc etc How can these two options be equated?

A lot (a majority?) of websites aren't made by people that need those things. A lot of people just want to get their ideas up on a page so they can show their friends. The thing I walked away with from the article was that PHP is still active in part because it has such a low entry point for those people, where as Rails does not.

Like you said, they're very different entities, but a lot of people can't tell or don't care about the difference.

Re: Why PHP continues to thrive in the age of the PaaS

#56
post #51

I don't do much web development, just a product once every year or so to play around with an idea. Always in PHP. A few months ago I was asked by a close friend to help them with a not-so-serious site. I decided that I'd use Rails, because, hey, I've heard nothing but good about it from HN and the like. I was absolutely blown away by how much work it required to get started. That, and how painful it was to explain to…

I don't know about you, but when I decide to do a project, I'll often use a new technology that I'll struggle with, because I want to learn and grow as a developer. Giving up because something is hard is a poor excuse. Period.

Who said anything about giving up?

Re: Why PHP continues to thrive in the age of the PaaS

#57
PHP also has a lot of very cheap hosting options, I have seen them advertised for as little as $3 per month. Trying to host rails for less than $10-15 is challenging.

There's also a ton of complete software solutions available, like phpBB, vBulletin , Wordpress etc. The PHP industry offers more scripts for a one off $x download which can then be deployed via FTP by a non-technical person who doesn't know git.

The rails/django ways seems to be to sell everything as SaaS. The upshot of this is that a non technical person can get something started with a PHP based system, so by the time they call a serious developer in to help there is already inertia.

Re: Why PHP continues to thrive in the age of the PaaS

#58
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making the mistake of conflating PHP the language with Rails the Framework. I can do your app in Rails pretty damn quickly at this point (with one of my current skeleton frameworks I can add authentication administration and other nice features pretty much "for free" as well) But tell me I have to do it CodeIgniter or Laravel and I'd be completely lost for days.

> You're making the mistake of conflating PHP the language with Rails the Framework. I've heard someone call PHP "the C web framework". I thought it was fitting, and in addition, it seemed that even as a C web framework, it was a failure.

PHP may have some rather serious flaws but it is far from a failure and runs on a huge majority of the web.

Re: Why PHP continues to thrive in the age of the PaaS

#59
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about you, but when I decide to do a project, I'll often use a new technology that I'll struggle with, because I want to learn and grow as a developer. Giving up because something is hard is a poor excuse. Period.

Who said anything about giving up?

You're right, you didn't. But, would you use rails again for your next project? The tone of your comment sounds like you'd like nothing to do with it next time around.

I didn't mean for my comment to come off as snobby, I just hope you don't discard rails/ruby (or branching out from php) because you feel it's not the easiest to work with out of the box (even if only for non-technical people).

Re: Why PHP continues to thrive in the age of the PaaS

#60
post #18
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's because PHP operates at thermodynamic equilibrium and creating order from those states requires the expenditure of energy. Rails is great for creating a site with a form where people can upload images, it's a 20 to 30 minute project in rails, pretty much just take any rails blog tutorial and add paperclip. (Note, it's not a 20 minute project for anyone who doesn't already know rails) Rails is not for non-…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillato... -- the AED is worse in every way than a properly trained professional with the right tools, except for one way: its there, it sort-of works, and you can't beat something with nothing. Requiring a professional is a flaw, not a virtue. It's particularly problematic in our industry, where the end-user and most of the people involved in the production are no…

> Requiring a professional is a flaw, not a virtue.

Don't you think that depends mostly on whether there are professionals available?

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