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On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

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51–60 of 187 posts

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#51
I really scoff at the notion that any sort of white collar programming job is exploitative. I know there is some controversy over interns in some industries (not tech), Wal-Mart workers, overseas child slaves, and other real problems in the workforce. But to call out Penny Arcade for what amounts to a very honest job listing, for one of the most high-paying jobs in the country and the world, is just absurd.

So what if the blogpost describes a myth, and they'll settle for someone who does a bit of each? That's not a crime, that's a strategy.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#52
post #30
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is described is something toward the top end of basic competence. The only reason someone would think this is crazy is if they have been hanging around bad engineers and / or administrators. That said, most engineers / administrators are pretty mediocre, especially these days now that so many more people are doing it. So. I mean, if "managing office firewalls" is on someone's list of things that are impressive,…

Really I guess the reason I am replying is that I am disturbed by this repeatedly-brought-up notion that highly productive people do not exist. I am not sure why it disturbs me so much, I think maybe because if potential highly-productive people read these things and believe them, they may be demotivated from reaching their potential. Maybe, I don't know. If you don't believe that highly-productive programmers exist,…

>they may be demotivated from reaching their potential.

Surely you don't think the potential of these highly productive programmers is to spend their days doing general IT, working on call 24/7, and being compensated with below market salary and benefits?

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in America, with no social safety net I'm starting to doubt that this kind of thing is hyperbole and starting to think people actually believe it.

Break your leg, don't claim insurance, and have your car break down, and lose your job. Tell me about that safety net.

I guess I was right, it wasn't hyperbole, you actually believe it. At any rate: http://www.ssa.gov/disability/

I'm sure the reply will be that that isn't enough, so at least then we'll just be back to it being righteous hyperbole.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#54
post #7

I think the thing that frustrates me the most about it is: they’ll probably get a thousand applicants. A bunch of 25 year-old kids with a ton of talent and stars in their eyes are going to try to get this crap job for crap pay so they can work somewhere “cool” and feel like a part of something big. The Penny Arcade “machine” (their term) will roll on, making its millions of dollars while somehow retaining the “little…

I don't think the author describes Khoo as a villain, just as someone who is very "money-motivated" despite explicitly saying otherwise. Yes, it's subjective to say "the cachet of working at Penny Arcade doesn't outweigh the negatives of this job, and the fact that the posting tells you up front that it's a shit job doesn't change that," but the author certainly makes a good case as to why he believes that. Is it conjecture to say that Khoo wants to pay under market rate for one job that should really be done by more than one person at market rate? Well, if you believe the job listing that Khoo wrote, not really. That's pretty much how he described the job, and that's a perfectly reasonable inference from it.

Also, I don't see an actual ad hominem attack in here. Buecheler is blunt, but it seems to me he's very explicitly attacking Khoo's actions and policies here. He may be arguing that those actions make Khoo kind of a jerk, but that's not ad hominem. (Buecheler clearly argues Khoo is a terrific businessman, in fact; he just argues that he's using his powers for evil.)

You can certainly argue that "You should know it's a shit job, here's how it's a shit job, but hey it's for Penny Arcade! Woo!" is a fine enough job posting because it's up front about its intrinsic shittiness. But I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to respond with, "Yes, but not only is a shit job still a shit job, this particular one is a shit job at a company that certainly has the resources to make it not a shit job and is choosing to make it so because they're a high-profile, loved-by-nerds company and can get away with it." That response appears to be fundamentally correct.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#55

This is a confusing post. I understand that pain of seeing someone in an abusive relationship, like a talented programmer working at a game studio on a crappy legacy codebase because it was once touched by some personal hero of theirs. Or the killer VLSI chip designer writing shell scripts any system administrator could write because its "working at Google." But the author here isn't in the place. He is arguing that…

I didn't get that reading at all--it seemed very much a straightforward "folks, don't be starstruck: this job is a set-up."

A story:

I was the technical cofounder (effectively) for a coworking space once upon a time. I did everything from build websites, handle mailing lists, run cable, deploy and design enterprise-class networking infrastructure, take out the garbage, and power-route through a blocked sewer drain.

It was a great job, and a good way of keeping myself in beer money while decompressing from my previous gig.

Except, at the end of the day, I wasn't a cofounder. I had no contractual stake in the company. I had no health insurance. I didn't always get payed on time. To replace me, they suddenly needed: an AV person, a networking person, a Rails developer, and somebody that could hawk their space to other developers (they were biz bros through and through, and the only developers we had at the space were basically due to my networking on their behalf).

I don't regret the time I spent there, and I still help put out fires from time to time, but it was an easy trap to fall into, and could've ended really badly for all parties involved.

In these little businesses, especially when you start taking on the technical risk, you need a stake in the company. Otherwise, you're just some schlub that was recruited to do the work.

And when the web site is updated a little late, or a power outage kills a switch because the owners cheaped out on your spec (and they will, because they think in the small), or some other damn thing, it'll be you swinging in the breeze.

And they'll shitcan you, and find the next person foolish or desperate enough to go in for it.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#56

This is a confusing post. I understand that pain of seeing someone in an abusive relationship, like a talented programmer working at a game studio on a crappy legacy codebase because it was once touched by some personal hero of theirs. Or the killer VLSI chip designer writing shell scripts any system administrator could write because its "working at Google." But the author here isn't in the place. He is arguing that…

[deleted]

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#57

I'm not qualified to discern the quality of most of this post, but its tone disturbed me, and I agree that I find most of the ad hominem stuff really distasteful.

At no point does he structure his argument thus: {Khoo, Penny Arcade, anyone} is {immoral, stupid, lacking in some way} therefore they are wrong. Absent that, there is no ad hominem . What you have is a discussion of the personalities involved in the enterprise and a speculation as to their motives, methods and the means available to them. All of that is relevant in answering some questions which need to be asked of…

It's gotten to the point where any time I see someone citing a logical fallacy on the Internet, I can be 99% assured that they don't actually understand it.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#59
post #44
post #5

This is the dirty little secret of startups too. As an early hire you will work as hard as the founders, and take at least as much personal financial risk as them if it doesn't work out, yet with minimal exposure to any upside - so the sane options are, full co-founder, or double market rate salary to offset the risk. Not pennies and "stock options".

I thought it was standard at startups to offer company stock in exchange for small salaries for the first set of employees. If so, those employees with stock have at least some upside for the risk.

True, but it's generally something like 0.25% equity (almost always <1%). So you're working roughly the same hours for a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the overall equity.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#60

I really scoff at the notion that any sort of white collar programming job is exploitative. I know there is some controversy over interns in some industries (not tech), Wal-Mart workers, overseas child slaves, and other real problems in the workforce. But to call out Penny Arcade for what amounts to a very honest job listing, for one of the most high-paying jobs in the country and the world, is just absurd. So what i…

I want to upvote this a hundred times.
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