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Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

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Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#51

Post by nhebb »

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #12

Worst linkbait title ever? In fact, the entire post ridiculously manipulative. Doctorow is not doing anybody any favors by going into full tin-foil-hat-speak to disguise the facts. "Germany" is not "threatening" anybody. Malamud is getting sued by what is only referred to as the mysterious "the code people". (Which is actually DIN, an internationally well known standardisation institution, not need to refer to them a…

I used to work for a medical device manufacturer that had to comply with IEC 60601 (among others standards). Compliance with these standards was required by law, but the IEC and ISO documentation was not free. However, the underlying principal is that by purchasing copies of the standards, companies are subsidizing the creation and maintenance of the safety standards. In short it's kind of regulatory fee.

I applaud Malamud's efforts for some of the documents he has made available, but since the DIN is not a government agency, this is basically like making a copy of the ISO 9000 standards available for free download.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#52

Post by hvidgaard »

rowyourboat wrote: post #11
Amadou wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The body that creates the standards is typically a creation of the industry that implements the standards. It is a cost of doing business. Compare them to RFCs which are quite similar in that they are generally created by authors who work for the companies implementing the RFCs.

That does not make it legal to publish a work without the copyright holder's consent.

I think the problem here is that the standards become law - it's a grey area, because the law ought to be free for everyone to read.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#53

Post by hdevalence »

flexie wrote: post #36
DannyBee wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please cite any european decision to the contrary to support your decision ... Germany's official copyright law (which i only have english translations of, so apologies) says: "(3) The copyright on private collections of standards is not affected by section 1 and 2 if they are referred to in laws, regulations, decrees or official announcements without reproduction of their wording. In this case, the originator is obl…

I made an assertion and now it's my "job to support it"?! How is that for an assertion. Stating that everybody is not entitled to get a free copy of copyrighted material is hardly an assertion in the first place and I think you maybe have a very strong sense of entitlement if you think you should tell me what my job is ;-) I am not a German lawyer but a Danish one. The Danish copyright law doesn't have such provision…

> Stating that everybody is not entitled to get a free copy of copyrighted material is hardly an assertion in the first place

Yes, it is. Especially when that "copyrighted material" is part of the law.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#54

Post by sgift »

DannyBee wrote: post #14
flexie wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are quoting an American ruling. This is a European case.

Please cite any european decision to the contrary to support your decision ... Germany's official copyright law (which i only have english translations of, so apologies) says: "(3) The copyright on private collections of standards is not affected by section 1 and 2 if they are referred to in laws, regulations, decrees or official announcements without reproduction of their wording. In this case, the originator is obl…

> I doubt 103 euros per copy is going to be found to be reasonable terms ...

§32 of the law seems to apply here for "reasonable terms", which states in (2):

(2) (...) Any other remuneration shall be equitable if at the time the agreement is concluded it corresponds to what in business relations is customary and fair, given the nature and extent of the possibility of exploitation granted, in particular the duration and time of exploitation, and considering all circumstances.

Which is quite unspecific, but I think (sorry, no case I can quote) that 103 will be seen as "ok".

Notes: * IANAL Source: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_urhg/englisch_urh...

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#55

Post by darklajid »

crististm wrote: post #41
flexie wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made an assertion and now it's my "job to support it"?! How is that for an assertion. Stating that everybody is not entitled to get a free copy of copyrighted material is hardly an assertion in the first place and I think you maybe have a very strong sense of entitlement if you think you should tell me what my job is ;-) I am not a German lawyer but a Danish one. The Danish copyright law doesn't have such provision…

'I made an assertion and now it's my "job to support it"?! ' - Yep - that's how it goes.

Actually no. Stating the fact that random rulings in the US don't apply to this case here is nothing that needs further support. Even if the general idea ('those documents should be free') would be supported in a German court that observation would still be true: Those court cases aren't relevant. Interesting maybe, related for people asking themselves how the US handles this. But they don't mean a thing for the case in the article.

Nothing to "support" any further.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#56

Post by Zenst »

nhebb wrote: post #51
bowlofpetunias wrote: post #12

Worst linkbait title ever? In fact, the entire post ridiculously manipulative. Doctorow is not doing anybody any favors by going into full tin-foil-hat-speak to disguise the facts. "Germany" is not "threatening" anybody. Malamud is getting sued by what is only referred to as the mysterious "the code people". (Which is actually DIN, an internationally well known standardisation institution, not need to refer to them a…

I used to work for a medical device manufacturer that had to comply with IEC 60601 (among others standards). Compliance with these standards was required by law, but the IEC and ISO documentation was not free. However, the underlying principal is that by purchasing copies of the standards, companies are subsidizing the creation and maintenance of the safety standards. In short it's kind of regulatory fee. I applaud M…

Or you could view it as a monopoly with no competition. In effect it is a protection system. When viewed that way it is easy too see how people could become upset entering into these areas.

With that it is easy to see how such articles get written in such styles on the internet or indeed tabloids as it is a formula of panic that has served media well for too long.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#57

Post by Tomte »

Zenst wrote: post #56
nhebb wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work for a medical device manufacturer that had to comply with IEC 60601 (among others standards). Compliance with these standards was required by law, but the IEC and ISO documentation was not free. However, the underlying principal is that by purchasing copies of the standards, companies are subsidizing the creation and maintenance of the safety standards. In short it's kind of regulatory fee. I applaud M…

Or you could view it as a monopoly with no competition. In effect it is a protection system. When viewed that way it is easy too see how people could become upset entering into these areas. With that it is easy to see how such articles get written in such styles on the internet or indeed tabloids as it is a formula of panic that has served media well for too long.

It's not exactly a monopoly You can buy it from ANSI or BSI, as well. If you don't insist on the German language version (even then, the Austrians probably have another version).

Remember those C and C++ PDF standards, that ANSI sold for $18, later $30, despite the competition selling for two hundred or whatever?

But sure, it's not a really competitive market.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#58

Post by clarry »

flexie wrote: post #36
DannyBee wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please cite any european decision to the contrary to support your decision ... Germany's official copyright law (which i only have english translations of, so apologies) says: "(3) The copyright on private collections of standards is not affected by section 1 and 2 if they are referred to in laws, regulations, decrees or official announcements without reproduction of their wording. In this case, the originator is obl…

I made an assertion and now it's my "job to support it"?! How is that for an assertion. Stating that everybody is not entitled to get a free copy of copyrighted material is hardly an assertion in the first place and I think you maybe have a very strong sense of entitlement if you think you should tell me what my job is ;-) I am not a German lawyer but a Danish one. The Danish copyright law doesn't have such provision…

I don't think the article is concerned about manufacture, but about the rest of us. How can you as a consumer know the safety assurances a product has when it claims to conform to a given standard? If you can't read that standard... Maybe it isn't unreasonable to expect manufacturers pay a hundred euros for a standard (though I'd hate to), but it is unreasonable to expect the general public to do the same.

I hope I needn't explain why safety standards (as well as laws, regulations, and anything we rely on) should be open to public scrutiny.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#59

Post by Cederfjard »

vadiml wrote: post #47
flexie wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made an assertion and now it's my "job to support it"?! How is that for an assertion. Stating that everybody is not entitled to get a free copy of copyrighted material is hardly an assertion in the first place and I think you maybe have a very strong sense of entitlement if you think you should tell me what my job is ;-) I am not a German lawyer but a Danish one. The Danish copyright law doesn't have such provision…

| 100 Euro is the price of a meal at an average restaurant Wow!!! Something is rotten in the kingdom of Danemark... The life seems to be very expensive. In France it'll be like 30 Euro (3 courses and wine)

I visited Copenhagen as recently as this summer, and I think what flexie considers the average restaurant would feel pretty upscale to me. Then again I'm not a lawyer. :)

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#60

Post by nhaehnle »

roel_v wrote: post #43
nhaehnle wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the explanation. Let me offer a tl;dr: Standards bodies found a bureaucratic loophole allowing them to make their standards into de facto -law while avoiding that those standards then become part of the public domain as they ought to be. Sounds like a classic case where the law has not caught up with morality.

No, you are wrong , the whole reason the GP is so long is because EU law is much more complicated than the average nerds' vision of what law should be like (i.e., a rule-based decision tree). It is no 'loop hole', it is a fundamental feature of EU law to not be a federal system where the Commission sets the law in a uniform way across the territory.

Your point about the complexity of EU law is irrelevant.

If there is even one single EU country in which the law is implemented in such a way that the standard referenced by the EU document becomes de facto law, then that standard ought to enter the public domain at least within that country. The detour via the EU is irrelevant.

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