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Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

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Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#51

Post by nknighthb »

papasmrf wrote: post #49
nknighthb wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've been contracting with customers to provide them your time as a programmer and charging them in this way, your customers need to sue you. Legal services are not a packaged product, they are time, and that time is what is being paid for.

This comment really illustrates the major flaw in hourly billing. People begin to believe that all they are paying for is time. But they really are not just paying for time. They are paying for an attorney's expertise in getting the job done. This is why I try to stay away from hourly billing as much as possible. The billable hour is a scourge to the profession imho.

They are paying for time. The time of the attorney being engaged. Time from an attorney with significant expertise will, of course, cost more than time from someone who just passed the bar.

If you want to bill on some other basis, fine, but you are not entitled to tell your clients you're billing them an hourly rate and then make up the hours based on the value you think is being provided. That's fraud.

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#53

Post by papasmrf »

nirmel wrote: post #50

I would love feedback on my startup, Lawdingo.com (YC W13), as I believe it addresses many of these issues. We get independent lawyers to be transparent about their prices, we solicit community reviews, and we make lawyers available instantly. I'd humbly recommend people try it out for their startup legal needs. It's free.

As a lawyer I am always interested in sites that want to try to change the legal profession in some way. My thoughts: Do you vet the attorneys in some way, ie, require a bar license number to become a lawyer on the site? Usually on the consumer side these sites just turn into a race for the bottom price, with no real regard for the quality of the representation that will be given. Frankly that is a problem for all of these types of sites, it should be a concern for you in terms of attracting quality lawyers to the site, a quality lawyer with a quality practice will not necessarily want to get into a position of competing on lower and lower prices.

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#54

Post by [deleted] »

grellas wrote: post #43

If your startup lawyer deals straight with you, gives you honest estimates, bills for time actually spent, uses good judgment in managing the legal time spent on your matter, avoids duplicative billing, is willing to deal fairly with situations when you question a billing item and have reasonable reasons for doing so, and, of course, does the job right and is a good lawyer to work with, then be thankful and do not qu…

[deleted]

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#55

Post by papasmrf »

nknighthb wrote: post #51
papasmrf wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment really illustrates the major flaw in hourly billing. People begin to believe that all they are paying for is time. But they really are not just paying for time. They are paying for an attorney's expertise in getting the job done. This is why I try to stay away from hourly billing as much as possible. The billable hour is a scourge to the profession imho.

They are paying for time. The time of the attorney being engaged. Time from an attorney with significant expertise will, of course, cost more than time from someone who just passed the bar. If you want to bill on some other basis, fine, but you are not entitled to tell your clients you're billing them an hourly rate and then make up the hours based on the value you think is being provided. That's fraud.

I agree with you. My point was just that I do not want my value being reduced to nothing but time, and that is exactly what hourly billing does. So I tend not to do use hourly billing. Having done it working for other attorneys, I'll tell you it is a crappy way to spend your day keeping track of minutes.

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#58

Post by gamblor956 »

lukev wrote: post #3

A lot of these strike me as not only sneaky, but unethical and possibly even illegal. For example, as a software consultant I would feel I were committing fraud were I to bill two clients for the same hour of time. Is there a different consensus around the definition of "billable time" in the legal world that makes this not as bad as it sounds?

Some state bars have decided that lawyers can no longer bill travel time to one client if the time is also spent billing work to another client. However, many states still accept this practice, because on its face, it is perfectly reasonable and ethical.

For example: if a client is being billed for time spent traveling on behalf of the client, the lawyer could do nothing while traveling and the time would still be billable to that client (as travel time). Even if the lawyer then does work for another client at the same time, the lawyer is still spending time traveling for the first client. (Note that travel time is frequently billed at lower rates or is otherwise discounted compared to normal billable work.) Curiously, however, it is not permissible to bill the same client for travel time and again for time spent working on that same client's case while traveling.

Re: Ways That Startup Lawyers Overcharge

#60

Post by SilasX »

grellas wrote: post #43

If your startup lawyer deals straight with you, gives you honest estimates, bills for time actually spent, uses good judgment in managing the legal time spent on your matter, avoids duplicative billing, is willing to deal fairly with situations when you question a billing item and have reasonable reasons for doing so, and, of course, does the job right and is a good lawyer to work with, then be thankful and do not qu…

That's a lot to expect. Any lawyer diligent and conscientious enough to do all the stuff you've listed will also be really high in demand and only deal with the most deep pocketed clients in the first place.
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