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Did Shutting Down Silk Road Make the World a More Dangerous Place?

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Re: Did Shutting Down Silk Road Make the World a More Dangerous Place?

#51

Post by revelation »

pak wrote: post #35

Here's a question for the techno-libertarians stepping up to say the government has no right to shut down sites like Silk Road. Where do you derive this supposed natural right for anonymity on the internet? Life, liberty, freedom from discrimination, due process--these things I understand, and there are well supported philosophical frameworks (rule utilitarian, Kantian, libertarian etc.) for deriving them from first…

People seem to forget this is just the internet. It's a communications medium. Anonymity in communications are certainly not a unique feature of the internet, you can hide your caller id, and a letter will still arrive without a return address. The basic idea being that you can't shoot someone in the face by merely communicating, and I'm pretty sure you can still not commit a violent crime over the internet alone. Communication mediums are the safest thing in the whole wide world.

Your whole intellectual stance from which you approach this topic is off. History is very clear on this: the biggest enemies of justice have been governments and state sponsored entities, every single time. The concept of "natural rights" is motivated by protection against the government.

Re: Did Shutting Down Silk Road Make the World a More Dangerous Place?

#52

Post by tymski »

BashiBazouk wrote: post #14

Did Silk Road even put a slight dent in street drug sellers in the first place? I would be surprised if street level sellers and buyers are internet savvy enough to use a service like this. SR looks more like the ideal system for savvy college students and young techs to specifically avoid the street level market.

Do you really think that a seller would pass up the opportunity to use a service like this that would net them far more than they probably make as well as it being much safer for all parties? Of course not, it only requires some googling to figure out how to use it.

Re: Did Shutting Down Silk Road Make the World a More Dangerous Place?

#53

Post by lotsofcows »

GhotiFish wrote: post #22
venus wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there is anyone who believes - really believes - it has not. The war on drugs is kind of this diorama encapsulation of everything that is wrong with our politics, media, and society.

Well. I'm not convinced it did, myself. If prohibition didn't happen 1920s for the americans, would Al Capone never of being born? Really these prohibition laws give lowlifes something to fight over, and the fightings dangerous, but who says they wouldn't be fighting anyway? Does it make life more dangerous. Maybe not. Does it make it more dangerous for me? Maybe. edit: Ouch. Looking forward to that rebuttal.

"edit: Ouch. Looking forward to that rebuttal."

Ha, ha. You must be new here.

Re: Did Shutting Down Silk Road Make the World a More Dangerous Place?

#54

Post by saraid216 »

revelation wrote: post #51
pak wrote: post #35

Here's a question for the techno-libertarians stepping up to say the government has no right to shut down sites like Silk Road. Where do you derive this supposed natural right for anonymity on the internet? Life, liberty, freedom from discrimination, due process--these things I understand, and there are well supported philosophical frameworks (rule utilitarian, Kantian, libertarian etc.) for deriving them from first…

People seem to forget this is just the internet. It's a communications medium . Anonymity in communications are certainly not a unique feature of the internet, you can hide your caller id, and a letter will still arrive without a return address. The basic idea being that you can't shoot someone in the face by merely communicating, and I'm pretty sure you can still not commit a violent crime over the internet alone. C…

> The concept of "natural rights" is motivated by protection against the government.

That's why natural rights are so difficult to defend. Their entire basis is anti-change.

Re: Did Shutting Down Silk Road Make the World a More Dangerous Place?

#55

Post by ArbitraryLimits »

pak wrote: post #35

Here's a question for the techno-libertarians stepping up to say the government has no right to shut down sites like Silk Road. Where do you derive this supposed natural right for anonymity on the internet? Life, liberty, freedom from discrimination, due process--these things I understand, and there are well supported philosophical frameworks (rule utilitarian, Kantian, libertarian etc.) for deriving them from first…

> But an anonymous free-for-all exchange being a natural right? We aren't born anonymous. In the "state of nature," without government, we are in no way anonymous.

No one's ever been 100% anonymous in the physical world before, but by the same token the government can't watch 100% of what 100% of all the people do in the physical world either.

On the Internet apparently the only way to make sure you can be anonymous _ever_ is to make it so you're anonymous _always_.

Re: Did Shutting Down Silk Road Make the World a More Dangerous Place?

#56

Post by BashiBazouk »

tymski wrote: post #52
BashiBazouk wrote: post #14

Did Silk Road even put a slight dent in street drug sellers in the first place? I would be surprised if street level sellers and buyers are internet savvy enough to use a service like this. SR looks more like the ideal system for savvy college students and young techs to specifically avoid the street level market.

Do you really think that a seller would pass up the opportunity to use a service like this that would net them far more than they probably make as well as it being much safer for all parties? Of course not, it only requires some googling to figure out how to use it.

And a computer. And an internet connection. And enough computer experience to get tor running. And enough savvy to find SR's address in the first place. And a customer base with all of the above. I think my point stands...

Re: Did Shutting Down Silk Road Make the World a More Dangerous Place?

#57

Post by ferdo »

pak wrote: post #35

Here's a question for the techno-libertarians stepping up to say the government has no right to shut down sites like Silk Road. Where do you derive this supposed natural right for anonymity on the internet? Life, liberty, freedom from discrimination, due process--these things I understand, and there are well supported philosophical frameworks (rule utilitarian, Kantian, libertarian etc.) for deriving them from first…

> governments are ultimately the overseers that permit networking infrastructure comprising the internet to be built...society depends on accountability

There are two conflicting thoughts here. If we're not entitled to the same anonymity that those spying on us have, then we're servants, not members of a just society.

We can have a government as overseer of communications or we can have a just society. We can't have both.

It's an adage so old that it seems trite but it's still true: We can have Liberty or Security but if we pick Security over Liberty, we'll lose both.

Re: Did Shutting Down Silk Road Make the World a More Dangerous Place?

#58

Post by swamp40 »

I think one of the unintended consequences of shutting down Silk Road so publicly will be that the existence of the Tor network is now being advertised to lots of people for the first time.

A lot of regular people are probably now saying, "Wait, I can actually buy drugs online without getting caught or ripped off?"

We'll see if there is another spike in the Tor users after this news cycle: https://metrics.torproject.org/users.html

Re: Did Shutting Down Silk Road Make the World a More Dangerous Place?

#59

Post by ryanSrich »

bsullivan01 wrote: post #21

Stupid question and a stupid argument. Buying /selling drugs is illegal, so is buying /selling fake docs etc so why would anyone expect FBI to let such a service operate? Especially when sales numbers reach $1+ Billion and when the owner gives Forbes interviews saying FBI can't catch him? Let's get back to basics: FBI is supposed to enforce the laws. They do have some leeway in prioritizing, but a $1.2 Billion market…

Because shutting down a service where the majority of exchange is conducted with an adequate amount of peace only forces such exchange into streets where volence is often unavoidable.

Re: Did Shutting Down Silk Road Make the World a More Dangerous Place?

#60

Post by pavel_lishin »

BashiBazouk wrote: post #56
tymski wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think that a seller would pass up the opportunity to use a service like this that would net them far more than they probably make as well as it being much safer for all parties? Of course not, it only requires some googling to figure out how to use it.

And a computer. And an internet connection. And enough computer experience to get tor running. And enough savvy to find SR's address in the first place. And a customer base with all of the above. I think my point stands...

I imagine that today, in 2013, an enterprising 20-something year old who's dealing drugs for a living is more than competent enough to do all of the above; and my understanding was that SR was more like eBay than BestBuy - your customer base will find you.
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