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Docker + Red Hat OpenShift = The Tipping Point for Open PaaS?

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Re: Docker + Red Hat OpenShift = The Tipping Point for Open PaaS?

#51

Post by shykes »

justinsb wrote: post #45
shykes wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, Evidently you don't feel the need for Docker and don't believe it's useful of needed, which is of course totally fine. I won't try to convince you since I've tried before and failed :) (if other are interested I cover some of the differences between docker and lxc here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17989306/what-does-docker... ) However there are obviously people who disagree with you and find that Docker s…

It seems peterwwillis picked up on one very specific claim (that Docker is a portable standard) and called it out as false. That's exactly what we should be doing with false marketing claims, or else we end up with MongoDB all over again. If the two of you have a history, that's fine, but I think the OP made a fair comment, and you've attacked him personally rather than replying to the seemingly-valid point he made.…

peterwwillis makes 3 claims: 1) docker does not allow standardized, portable deployment of applications 2) docker is a "fancy wrapper" over lxc and adds no substantial value, 3) anyone who disagrees with this is spreading "lies" and "hyperbolic marketing claims" which will cause the readers of hacker news to form an incorrect and uninformed opinion.

I addressed points 1 and 2 by linking to this thread: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17989306/what-does-docker.... It lists half a dozen ways that I believe docker is different from lxc. The first item in the list is "portable deployment across machines".

I then called him out on point 3 because I consider it unfair and harmful. First it insults the intelligence of the hacker news readers ("they eat the marketing up, but I don't!"). Second it introduces FUD as an substitute for facts. Shouting "marketing hype!" in hacker news is the equivalent of shouting "anti-american!" in Congress. How many people will come away from this thread thinking "huh I wonder if docker is marketing hype after all?" simply because peterwwillis claimed it? Talk about a marketing hyperbole.

Re: Docker + Red Hat OpenShift = The Tipping Point for Open PaaS?

#52

Post by ternaryoperator »

justinsb wrote: post #45
shykes wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, Evidently you don't feel the need for Docker and don't believe it's useful of needed, which is of course totally fine. I won't try to convince you since I've tried before and failed :) (if other are interested I cover some of the differences between docker and lxc here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17989306/what-does-docker... ) However there are obviously people who disagree with you and find that Docker s…

It seems peterwwillis picked up on one very specific claim (that Docker is a portable standard) and called it out as false. That's exactly what we should be doing with false marketing claims, or else we end up with MongoDB all over again. If the two of you have a history, that's fine, but I think the OP made a fair comment, and you've attacked him personally rather than replying to the seemingly-valid point he made.…

>that's exactly what we should be doing with false marketing claims, or else we end up with MongoDB all over again

Sorry, but I don't get the reference to MongoDB. What happened there?

Re: Docker + Red Hat OpenShift = The Tipping Point for Open PaaS?

#53

Post by justinsb »

shykes wrote: post #51
justinsb wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems peterwwillis picked up on one very specific claim (that Docker is a portable standard) and called it out as false. That's exactly what we should be doing with false marketing claims, or else we end up with MongoDB all over again. If the two of you have a history, that's fine, but I think the OP made a fair comment, and you've attacked him personally rather than replying to the seemingly-valid point he made.…

peterwwillis makes 3 claims: 1) docker does not allow standardized, portable deployment of applications 2) docker is a "fancy wrapper" over lxc and adds no substantial value, 3) anyone who disagrees with this is spreading "lies" and "hyperbolic marketing claims" which will cause the readers of hacker news to form an incorrect and uninformed opinion. I addressed points 1 and 2 by linking to this thread: http://stackov…

I take it you two do have history, because I didn't really pick up on #2 and #3 from his comment. I would suggest that every time you say "docker is not just a fancy wrapper around LXC", mentally people assume that docker is probably little more than a fancy wrapper around LXC. Methinks you doth protest too much!

For #1, you've linked to a thread in which you claimed docker is more portable than LXC. I think you guys are arguing at cross-purposes here: you're saying that you're more portable because e.g. you abstract away the IP configuration (true), he is saying you're not portable because you're tied to specific kernel features (also true?).

I, for one, would like to hear more of Docker's benefits clearly explained (i.e. less shipping container metaphors, and more talk of IP configuration). I'd also like to hear more about the limitations of Docker (e.g. what kernel versions can I move containers between, on which kernel versions is it secure etc).

As for #2 and #3, those seem like non-fact-based arguments, so I'll let you and peter continue screaming at each other about who is more wrong on the Internet :-)

Re: Docker + Red Hat OpenShift = The Tipping Point for Open PaaS?

#54

Post by justinsb »

ternaryoperator wrote: post #52
justinsb wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems peterwwillis picked up on one very specific claim (that Docker is a portable standard) and called it out as false. That's exactly what we should be doing with false marketing claims, or else we end up with MongoDB all over again. If the two of you have a history, that's fine, but I think the OP made a fair comment, and you've attacked him personally rather than replying to the seemingly-valid point he made.…

>that's exactly what we should be doing with false marketing claims, or else we end up with MongoDB all over again Sorry, but I don't get the reference to MongoDB. What happened there?

I was suggesting that MongoDB's marketing claims initially went unchecked here and generally. It seems a lot of people assumed that others had done the due-diligence for them.

They started using it not knowing that it was not very concurrent, that the default transaction mode allowed data-loss, that it was slow when run in safe-mode, that it was not reliable unless replicated etc. (And these were all design issues, not implementation bugs). A lot of those people were pretty badly burned, particularly in the early days.

Re: Docker + Red Hat OpenShift = The Tipping Point for Open PaaS?

#55

Post by shykes »

justinsb wrote: post #53
shykes wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

peterwwillis makes 3 claims: 1) docker does not allow standardized, portable deployment of applications 2) docker is a "fancy wrapper" over lxc and adds no substantial value, 3) anyone who disagrees with this is spreading "lies" and "hyperbolic marketing claims" which will cause the readers of hacker news to form an incorrect and uninformed opinion. I addressed points 1 and 2 by linking to this thread: http://stackov…

I take it you two do have history, because I didn't really pick up on #2 and #3 from his comment. I would suggest that every time you say "docker is not just a fancy wrapper around LXC", mentally people assume that docker is probably little more than a fancy wrapper around LXC. Methinks you doth protest too much! For #1, you've linked to a thread in which you claimed docker is more portable than LXC. I think you guys…

> I, for one, would like to hear more of Docker's benefits clearly explained (i.e. less shipping container metaphors, and more talk of IP configuration). I'd also like to hear more about the limitations of Docker (e.g. what kernel versions can I move containers between, on which kernel versions is it secure etc).

Have you browsed the website at all? If you look through the Docker blog (http://blog.docker.io), the docs (http://docs.docker.io) and the user mailing list (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/docker-us...) you will find plenty of resources.

For example here are a few videos of actual people explaining how they use docker and why they like it (Ebay, Cloudflare and Mailgun/Rackspace). http://blog.docker.io/2013/08/docker-hack-day-6-lightning-ta...

There's also an online tutorial which lets you dive directly into a command-line simulator.

If you want to dig a little deeper you can also browse the dev mailing list (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/docker-dev) and our IRC channel: #docker on freenode.

I'm pretty sure none of these resources mention the shipping container more than once.

Re: Docker + Red Hat OpenShift = The Tipping Point for Open PaaS?

#56

Post by justinsb »

shykes wrote: post #55
justinsb wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it you two do have history, because I didn't really pick up on #2 and #3 from his comment. I would suggest that every time you say "docker is not just a fancy wrapper around LXC", mentally people assume that docker is probably little more than a fancy wrapper around LXC. Methinks you doth protest too much! For #1, you've linked to a thread in which you claimed docker is more portable than LXC. I think you guys…

> I, for one, would like to hear more of Docker's benefits clearly explained (i.e. less shipping container metaphors, and more talk of IP configuration). I'd also like to hear more about the limitations of Docker (e.g. what kernel versions can I move containers between, on which kernel versions is it secure etc). Have you browsed the website at all? If you look through the Docker blog ( http://blog.docker.io ), the d…

I'm sorry you took offense; it was intended as friendly feedback. I'm familiar with Docker. If you have actual answers, it would be much more constructive to post relevant links.

Re: Docker + Red Hat OpenShift = The Tipping Point for Open PaaS?

#57

Post by ternaryoperator »

justinsb wrote: post #54
ternaryoperator wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>that's exactly what we should be doing with false marketing claims, or else we end up with MongoDB all over again Sorry, but I don't get the reference to MongoDB. What happened there?

I was suggesting that MongoDB's marketing claims initially went unchecked here and generally. It seems a lot of people assumed that others had done the due-diligence for them. They started using it not knowing that it was not very concurrent, that the default transaction mode allowed data-loss, that it was slow when run in safe-mode, that it was not reliable unless replicated etc. (And these were all design issues, n…

Ah, I was unaware of that bit of history.

Re: Docker + Red Hat OpenShift = The Tipping Point for Open PaaS?

#58

Post by ilaksh »

dreamfactory wrote: post #40
ilaksh wrote: post #33

Lol. Still a lot of people who think that Red Hat derivatives are the only "enterprise-grade" server distros. Ubuntu and Debian work great.

Many enterprises will only use RHEL (tooling, support, market maturity etc), hence 'enterprise-grade'.

What tooling and support are you talking about that RHEL has that is not available for Ubuntu?
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