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A better approach to determining gender from a first name

genderize.io

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Re: A better approach to determining gender from a first name

#51

Post by [deleted] »

ludicast wrote: post #45
eksith wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how this API needs to accommodate transpeople in its 0.1 release. You have failed at empathy. Speaking to the fluidity of human gender, "Other" is the majority of the spectrum and defaulting to binary is just as naïve as defaulting to ASCII as expected input in an application/API written in 2013. Restricting yourself that early in the release cycle (and I'm still dubious of the merits of this project),…

>> Speaking to the fluidity of human gender, "Other" is the majority of the spectrum I agree 100% about the fluidity of human gender, but rather than lecture people via a form/api etc. it is probably simplest to have words that most people use like male and female and something ("other", "trans", "enlightened", whatever) for the 3rd option. >> I just read your comment history and, if I'm not mistaken, you're already…

[deleted]

Re: A better approach to determining gender from a first name

#52

Post by IsaacL »

eksith wrote: post #49
ludicast wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Speaking to the fluidity of human gender, "Other" is the majority of the spectrum I agree 100% about the fluidity of human gender, but rather than lecture people via a form/api etc. it is probably simplest to have words that most people use like male and female and something ("other", "trans", "enlightened", whatever) for the 3rd option. >> I just read your comment history and, if I'm not mistaken, you're already…

it is probably simplest to have words that most people use like male and female and something... The simplest is a text field with: "What prefix would you like us to use?" The End. There are no assumptions, no assignment of labels, not one bit of imposing your cultural norms on anyone else. The hardest part of getting over biases is acknowledging that you have them. Learn some sensitivity, please.

The simplest is a text field with: "What prefix would you like us to use?" The End.

That's indeed a simple approach, and indeed it does not force any pre-existing biases on your users.

But it's not necessarily a perfect approach, especially if you want to perform any kind of data analysis on your user base. This doesn't have to be some evil ad tracking system, imagine if you were working on some medical app and wanted to analyse how a particular condition effected different genders. The trouble with your approach is that it's really hard to normalise free text fields.

In fact, if you wanted to do anything with users' gender data other than dump it into a database, you'd need to normalise it, and then you're back to using a finite set of categories.

Re: A better approach to determining gender from a first name

#53

Post by quesera »

clarkm wrote: post #16
sambeau wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also assumes two distinct genders which is a fallacy.

Sure, but that doesn't preclude it from being a useful metric for something like ad targeting.

Many would argue that "being a useful metric" for an inherently non-useful purpose is worse than a waste of time.

Re: A better approach to determining gender from a first name

#54

Post by ludicast »

eksith wrote: post #49
ludicast wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Speaking to the fluidity of human gender, "Other" is the majority of the spectrum I agree 100% about the fluidity of human gender, but rather than lecture people via a form/api etc. it is probably simplest to have words that most people use like male and female and something ("other", "trans", "enlightened", whatever) for the 3rd option. >> I just read your comment history and, if I'm not mistaken, you're already…

it is probably simplest to have words that most people use like male and female and something... The simplest is a text field with: "What prefix would you like us to use?" The End. There are no assumptions, no assignment of labels, not one bit of imposing your cultural norms on anyone else. The hardest part of getting over biases is acknowledging that you have them. Learn some sensitivity, please.

I'm either being trolled or bullied here.

A text field adds time to type out (which can lose customers, alienate handicapped etc.), all to accommodate an exception, rather than a rule.

I don't care if you have a slider, dropdown, circle, whatever, but for usability, a gender option should have poles that require 0 or 1 clicks to get to (though a text-field for further elucidation is okay). Continuing down this path, the further step is saying a shoe-size option insults amputees and lymphedema victims and should be a text-field...

Edit - Another fact is that the person filling out this form might not be the person described by the form (say for a CRM tool) in which case it matters more to KISS.

Re: A better approach to determining gender from a first name

#55

Post by IsaacL »

tommorris wrote: post #48
IsaacL wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but it's interesting to think about how you would handle such information programmatically. Even for a case where you let users input their own gender, it's tricky. Do you simply add some extra genders? Male-to-female transexual, female-to-male transexual, intersex? No matter how many categories you add, you'll always annoy someone for missing them out. Does 'genderqueer' and 'genderfluid' count as the same…

Easy. Store in your database (or whatever) as free text. In UI, provide a form with "Male, Female, Other". If they click other, reveal an optional text field where they can enter what they wish. Store. Normalize the synonyms of male and female to lower case "male" and "female" when doing analysis. You don't have to get 100% normalisation. But you'll probably get 80-90%. Contemplate what you are actually using the dat…

Good answer, that sounds like a reasonable compromise.

Re: A better approach to determining gender from a first name

#56

Post by quesera »

tommorris wrote: post #18
batemanesque wrote: post #4

I'm sure this is interesting from a statistical point of view, but does the tech scene really need yet more reinforcement of a binary view of gender?

You want an enlightened view of the complexity of sensitively handling transgender people, non-binary genders and other gender and sexual minorities? This is Hacker News. Such enlightened thought is frowned on by our new brogrammer overlords. Here's your beer.

Wow, that's misplaced hostility.

If you wanted to deride the fact that many folks here won't spent multiples of effort on special, experimental, no-right-answers-and-likely-to-be-criticized-for-it-if-you-even-try cases that affect minuscule fractions of their potential user base, well...get in line behind the IE5 advocates, I guess.

Someone recommends using a free form entry for gender. No amount of normalization will fix the "ham sandwich" entries (except that we know they are nearly all male), so you'd trade the integrity of a small percentage of your data for the appearance of "making an effort" for the vanishingly small percentage. Net fail.

Just to be clear, my primary feeling here is that -- in the hypothetical case where gender matters -- you're best served by keeping it simple: (female | male | other/it's complicated | prefer not to answer). This should serve all cases equally.

Re: A better approach to determining gender from a first name

#57

Post by eksith »

quesera wrote: post #56
tommorris wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want an enlightened view of the complexity of sensitively handling transgender people, non-binary genders and other gender and sexual minorities? This is Hacker News. Such enlightened thought is frowned on by our new brogrammer overlords. Here's your beer.

Wow, that's misplaced hostility. If you wanted to deride the fact that many folks here won't spent multiples of effort on special, experimental, no-right-answers-and-likely-to-be-criticized-for-it-if-you-even-try cases that affect minuscule fractions of their potential user base, well...get in line behind the IE5 advocates, I guess. Someone recommends using a free form entry for gender. No amount of normalization wil…

The solution is already available by the very same folks who would just as easily think nothing of presenting that "female | male | other/it's complicated | prefer not to answer" field though.

In lieu of questioning who the user is, may I suggest see what the user does instead? Behavior, in the end, is the real key to unlocking demographic potential. What purchases are made, what items were clicked on, where they had browsed and what titles on pages attracted them on the site can tell far more than a simple field.

This, of course, takes time and testing plus accumulation of data. But since a fair number of HN users also like to exalt the status of "Big Data", there's a more productive use for it.

Don't try to finagle who the user is or isn't. Just find out what they want.

Re: A better approach to determining gender from a first name

#58

Post by mjolk »

stephencanon wrote: post #32
mjolk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're kidding right? Guessing gender for a "show hacker news" with a .io domain is a clear case of "done is better than perfect."

Adding 1 to the numerator and 2 to the denominator is a trivial improvement, not pie-in-the-sky whiteboarding that prevents you from shipping.

Yes, to fix the "girls named Larry" bug.

Re: A better approach to determining gender from a first name

#59

Post by batemanesque »

quesera wrote: post #56
tommorris wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want an enlightened view of the complexity of sensitively handling transgender people, non-binary genders and other gender and sexual minorities? This is Hacker News. Such enlightened thought is frowned on by our new brogrammer overlords. Here's your beer.

Wow, that's misplaced hostility. If you wanted to deride the fact that many folks here won't spent multiples of effort on special, experimental, no-right-answers-and-likely-to-be-criticized-for-it-if-you-even-try cases that affect minuscule fractions of their potential user base, well...get in line behind the IE5 advocates, I guess. Someone recommends using a free form entry for gender. No amount of normalization wil…

ah yes, because trying to be decent & inclusive to persecuted minorities is the comparable to supporting an obsolete browser - yr analogy is a perfect illustration of the grotesque intersection between the Valley & bigotry.

also, "the hypothetical case where gender matters" is a glorious illustration of straight privilege

Re: A better approach to determining gender from a first name

#60

Post by batemanesque »

IsaacL wrote: post #39
tommorris wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want an enlightened view of the complexity of sensitively handling transgender people, non-binary genders and other gender and sexual minorities? This is Hacker News. Such enlightened thought is frowned on by our new brogrammer overlords. Here's your beer.

I agree, but it's interesting to think about how you would handle such information programmatically. Even for a case where you let users input their own gender, it's tricky. Do you simply add some extra genders? Male-to-female transexual, female-to-male transexual, intersex? No matter how many categories you add, you'll always annoy someone for missing them out. Does 'genderqueer' and 'genderfluid' count as the same…

re: the brogrammer thing, that's little more than a sign of the breadth of their insidious reach...
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