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City of London Police Launch Intellectual Property Crime Unit

cityoflondon.police.uk

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Re: City of London Police Launch Intellectual Property Crime Unit

#51
post #46
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the initial arrests made by this unit, it would appear the target remains commercial IP infringement: http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/sep/13/police-intellectu...

There are people still pirating on physical media !? I think it is ok to go after the sharks but where do you draw the line, 10 copies, a 100?

Absolutely. It's an enormous market in parts of the world. Worldwide, I suspect more people are pirating things on physical media than downloading direct from the Internet.

I think common sense applies in drawing the line. A kid who burns the occasional DVD and sells it in the school playground to cover his costs, probably not worth pursuing. An organized group importing counterfeit DVDs by the container-load and distributing them through an established distribution network, probably worth pursuing.

Re: City of London Police Launch Intellectual Property Crime Unit

#52
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Defending yourself against an accusation will always be costly. I take comfort in the fact that the authorities very rarely make completely baseless accusations. There are certainly cases in which officers were mistaken, there are mitigating circumstances, or you can avoid punishment on a technicality, but I can't think of any instances in which authorities have…

Unfortunately, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Defending yourself against an accusation will always be costly. Why must it always be costly? It is a perfectly rational alternative policy to bring a smaller number of prosecutions, and to compensate defendants for their costs, wasted time and distress, if a prosecution fails. I take comfort in the fact that the authorities very rarely make completely baseless…

> Why must it always be costly? It is a perfectly rational alternative policy to bring a smaller number of prosecutions, and to compensate defendants for their costs, wasted time and distress, if a prosecution fails.

I'm not well versed in the details, but I understand you can reclaim certain costs incurred in defending yourself in such cases.

It is, alas, completely impracticable to cover all costs, as many of the costs (compensation for the distress caused, time spent worrying about the case, etc.) are non-pecuniary.

Hence defending an accusation will always be costly. No one is ever going to come out of a court case, even when proven innocent, thinking the whole experience had a net positive impact on their life.

> You might like to look up some of the published data about the proportion of appeals that succeed against things like local-authority-issued parking tickets and ANPR-based congestion charges. It happens all the time, and erroneous charges aren't even close to the kind of isolated incidents you seem to believe they are.

That's what I was referring to in the subsequent qualification. People routinely get off the hook for such infractions on technicalities, but that doesn't render the initial accusation baseless.

Generally speaking, the person will have been at the location on the given date, doing something or other that gave the authority good reason to issue them with a fine.

If they were not, it is usually a reasonable misunderstanding (e.g. cloned plates, stolen car, taken without owner's consent, ANPR system mis-read a plate) and relatively straightforward to clear up.

> Whether it was malicious on the part of the authorities or their enforcement people just got duped as in the cloning case you mentioned makes no difference at all to an innocent third party who gets slapped with a penalty notice they didn't deserve.

What else are you going to do? Stop issuing penalties for motoring offences full-stop because a tiny percentage of vehicles on the road are stolen, or taken without the owners' consent, or have cloned plates, and thus issuing a penalty to the owner will stress them out?

Re: City of London Police Launch Intellectual Property Crime Unit

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I'm telling you that nobody gives a shit, because they just want to listen to music. I do realize that people are selfish and just want everything for free, and that computers & the Internet enable them to circumvent having to pay for music. That doesn't change anything about my point, though. Do you realize that if music producers can't make a satisfactory profit, then music will just not be produced ? Again,…

What I think you're missing is people don't believe them not paying for music causes harm. Even if they did, I suspect a large number of them simply won't care enough to pay.

> What I think you're missing is people don't believe them not paying for music causes harm.

I'm aware of that. But I don't think the guy I originally responded to thought even that far. That's why I responded. He's just completely oblivious to the fact that people putting music up for sale actually do expect others to pay for it.

Re: City of London Police Launch Intellectual Property Crime Unit

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I'm telling you that nobody gives a shit, because they just want to listen to music. I do realize that people are selfish and just want everything for free, and that computers & the Internet enable them to circumvent having to pay for music. That doesn't change anything about my point, though. Do you realize that if music producers can't make a satisfactory profit, then music will just not be produced ? Again,…

I ask again: so what? Musicians don't need producers--in fact, this has been a role only recently filled in the 20th century. They don't need them to perform, they don't need them to record, they don't need them to make money. In fact, you can very easily find examples of producers doing more hard than good...just ask any fan of Streetlight Manifesto. Technology, both in recording and broadcasting, has advanced to th…

> I ask again: so what?

>> And I'm telling you that nobody gives a shit, because they just want to listen to music.

Sure, you Just Want to listen to music, but that doesn't mean musicians/producers/record-companies should then just give it to you for free. This is what you're still missing.

I Want to have sex with hot women, but that doesn't mean they should then just automatically stop and spread their legs at me where ever I go.

> Musicians don't need producers--in fact, this has been a role only recently filled in the 20th century. They don't need them to perform, they don't need them to record, they don't need them to make money. In fact, you can very easily find examples of producers doing more hard than good...just ask any fan of Streetlight Manifesto.

Sure, traditional record companies are increasingly unnecessary, but people still need to somehow become aware of an artist's music - otherwise no one will buy it. In other words, there's still a need for "awareness middlemen" and/or advertising, even if home studios have made record companies unnecessary on the production side.

But see, when you declare that you just Want Stuff For Free, you're not making a distinction between those evil record companies and their poor abused slaves, the artists.

You can download the shit out of an independent artist's music, but he too wants you to pay for it. Gracing someone's music with the attention of your ears doesn't actually put food on his table.

There are songs available for purchase. If you want a particular song, you should pay for it, because the song has value to you. If you download it for free, you get something of value, but the music producer gets nothing. That's simply not a fair trade. To be more exact, it's not even a trade. It's you by-passing the trade.

Re: City of London Police Launch Intellectual Property Crime Unit

#55
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Defending yourself against an accusation will always be costly. Why must it always be costly? It is a perfectly rational alternative policy to bring a smaller number of prosecutions, and to compensate defendants for their costs, wasted time and distress, if a prosecution fails. I take comfort in the fact that the authorities very rarely make completely baseless…

> Why must it always be costly? It is a perfectly rational alternative policy to bring a smaller number of prosecutions, and to compensate defendants for their costs, wasted time and distress, if a prosecution fails. I'm not well versed in the details, but I understand you can reclaim certain costs incurred in defending yourself in such cases. It is, alas, completely impracticable to cover all costs, as many of the c…

I'm not well versed in the details, but I understand you can reclaim certain costs incurred in defending yourself in such cases.

Very little. If you've had professional legal representation then naturally the legal profession tends to look out for them, but the compensation to defendants personally (and to other parties involved in a case, such as witnesses and jurors) for their time and inconvenience is negligible.

What else are you going to do? Stop issuing penalties for motoring offences

It is sad that you dismiss that possibility without even considering it. Our structure for penalising poor driving in the UK is woefully unfit for purpose:

1. Its sanctions aren't an effective deterrent for the relatively small number of drivers whose behaviour really is habitually unacceptable and likely to cause significant problems for others.

2. It penalises many generally good drivers for breaking arbitrary rules without any evidence that what they did was actually dangerous, or even inconveniencing anyone else.

3. In some cases, it even gives drivers a despicable choice between driving safely and driving legally, because obeying those arbitrary rules when they are obviously inappropriate under the circumstances will antagonise and/or inconvenience other road users. Some of those other users will then do something more dangerous, such as performing a risky overtaking manoeuvre, and while the law may say that the other driver is then responsible for the resulting accident, that is of no comfort to the innocent and now dead third driver who was coming the other way and wound up in the head-on collision.

5. It penalises many generally good drivers for minor errors that everyone makes at some point, based essentially on luck. If everyone were actually prosecuted reliably and uniformly for these offences, so many drivers would lose their licence within a month that the law would be brought down or the government would be. Because prosecutions instead happen only intermittently and the law is inconsistently applied, it instead serves as an effective fund-raising tool, often with a glaring conflict of interest where effectively altering driver behaviour would reduce revenues so the incentives are aligned with catching people out rather than deterring undesired actions, and it breeds driver resentment.

In short, our system does not effectively defer serious bad behaviour, while simultaneously penalising behaviour that may not have caused any real problem at all and reducing general respect for the law among a very large proportion of the adult population.

With the rise of automated penalties where no review by a human with common sense need even be involved, man is now judged (often erroneously) by machine, and as I've been arguing, that means the system causes wildly disproportionate distress to a significant number of completely innocent people. I don't accept your claim that the people getting off on these appeals were almost always there and doing something wrong really and just got off on technicalities. I've never seen any data to support that position, in contrast to numerous reports that would indicate otherwise and demonstrate beyond any doubt that these kinds of automated enforcement systems are often fundamentally flawed.

(Just to be clear: I have been a driver for many years, and never had so much as a parking ticket. I have no personal axe to grind here. I just think obviously broken "justice" systems should be fixed, not defended as if making something the law automatically makes it right.)

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