Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy • Hacker News Board

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#51

Post by kamaal » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 4:44 AM UTC

One of the biggest hypocrisy that exists here in India at least with regards to 'Remote Work' or 'Work From Home' policy is how late night and after office-hour work hours are handled.

While companies come up with all sorts of reasons to deny work-from-home during the day, they some how assume all those reasons(which they them self give) will magically vanish while employees reach home in the evening and now employees should be able to work late nights from home.

How does this work out? During the day you don't want employees to work from home, telling them they won't be productive and after office hours you expect them to be most productive while working from home?

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#52

Post by cpayne » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 4:46 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #39

mberning wrote: post #25

This is true old school thinking at its worst. If my employer is going to put up all these rules and barriers maybe I should put up a few of my own. I bet the managers or whatever they fancy themselves to be at Fog Creek have very little appreciation for all of the small yet tangible things that employees go out of their way to do for them. Things like answering important emails in the evening, especially when it is…

I'm just picking your comment at random out of this thread...do you know Joel Spolsky who runs Fog Creek? I'm reading all these critical comments in this thread and reconciling it in my head with what I know of him (from his extensive blogging and podcasting) and I'm thinking, have so many years passed that no one knows who this person is they're criticizing? For example: > I bet the managers or whatever they fancy t…

I totally agree. Fog Creek are incredibly transparent, both internally and externally.

There are quite a few negative comments in this thread that I just can't understand.

Fog Creek are transparent on who earns [1]what. For those who have complained in this thread, I'd love to know how much more you are earning, and can I have a job there too!

[1] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000038.html

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#53

Post by LordHumungous » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 4:48 AM UTC

bliti wrote: post #48

LordHumungous wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their ideas are actually good but I think phrasing it in a tone of "do this or we will think you are a slacker" is counter productive. A better approach would be to say "if you are working from home, here are some ideas that we highly encourage to make your work environment better."

Good point. I did not think the tone would create that impression in others. One point in your feedback I might be confusing is the following. Seems that some people might believe that working remotely allows them other freedoms. Am I interpreting this incorrectly? If not, may you ( or another member) elaborate more?

Yes, working remotely allows many more freedoms. For example, you can work in your underwear if you want. You can play your music as loud as you like. Most rules a company may set for your home work environment can't really be enforced, so I think that by allowing an employee to work remotely you are automatically trusting them to get work done without supervision. If you feel you can't give them that trust, then don't let them work remotely.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#54

Post by lucisferre » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 4:48 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #39

mberning wrote: post #25

This is true old school thinking at its worst. If my employer is going to put up all these rules and barriers maybe I should put up a few of my own. I bet the managers or whatever they fancy themselves to be at Fog Creek have very little appreciation for all of the small yet tangible things that employees go out of their way to do for them. Things like answering important emails in the evening, especially when it is…

I'm just picking your comment at random out of this thread...do you know Joel Spolsky who runs Fog Creek? I'm reading all these critical comments in this thread and reconciling it in my head with what I know of him (from his extensive blogging and podcasting) and I'm thinking, have so many years passed that no one knows who this person is they're criticizing? For example: > I bet the managers or whatever they fancy t…

I don't think anyone needs to know anything about Joel to criticize these policies. Having an opinion about Joel should really have no bearing on the discussion.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#55

Post by thezilch » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 4:49 AM UTC

LordHumungous wrote: post #32

>at Fog Creek, it’s sort of assumed that everyone’s working steadily and diligently. In the absence of new information, the assumption is that you’re producing. Well that's a dumb assumption. The managers at Fog Creek don't do code reviews, don't look at commit logs, don't look at the features that developers have built? They just assume that everyone is being productive because they are in the office. >When you step…

No. RTFM

It’s because a few normal ways of staying involved (face time, informal chats, lunch) have been removed.

From experiences of my own and from stories of my co-workers', this is the most brutal part of WFH. It takes a lot more of yourself to work diligently when you're alone and don't get the same face time, and this is about, frankly, stating how to achieve the same advantages in the next best way. Your co-workers may not know how to get that face-time back from you either; you need to initiate.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#56

Post by parennoob » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 4:49 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #42

parennoob wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employee morale at my local McDonald's is tremendous. They also have tons of these micro-managey rules. Does that mean you would instantly want to work there?

> Does that mean you would instantly want to work there? I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. Personally, I don't prefer micromanagement, but it doesn't make me unhappy if other things are being run productively.

> Personally, I don't prefer micromanagement, but it doesn't make me unhappy if other things are being run productively.

What is this I don't even. So you don't prefer to be micro-managed, but you're fine if other people are? It doesn't work that way. This is a pervasive company culture. Either your company has these rules and everyone is micromanaged, or no-one is.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#57

Post by lacksconfidence » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 4:52 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #47

ISL wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One co-founder of Fog Creek has this to say, as a goal for the company [1]: "* great work environment, with the goal of every engineer having an office with a door that closes" And, in an oft-cited "Joel Test" [2]: "8. Do programmers have quiet working conditions?" Furthermore, the company itself says [3]: "The average Fog Creek developer has 694 square inches of screen real-estate, 2 desktop computers, and an Aeron…

From reading the comments in this thread, I don't think very many people in this thread know who Joel Spolsky is.

Or the alternate explanation, most of the people in this thread disagree with Joel Spolsky. Given occam's razor and his fairly high profile, which is more likely?

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#58

Post by Mc_Big_G » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 4:53 AM UTC

No thanks. This is all completely the opposite of how I want to work and I would never ask my dev resources to work like this. I wouldn't employ anyone that thought this was all a good idea and can't think of a single high quality dev that would accept it.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#59

Post by parennoob » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 4:54 AM UTC

general_failure wrote: post #45

parennoob wrote: post #20

"You still have stuff like chat, commit messages, code reviews, cases, Trello boards, etc. Be a little paranoid for this time about showing your work. It will help you feel good about your time, and us feel good about granting it." Run through a de-weaselizer, this reads: "Be a good little pet, and do an extra set of tricks when we take you out to the park, so you feel good about running around in the park and we fee…

The problem is not about the other person enjoying vacation. Its about you not being able to enjoy your work day because of their absence.

Read my comment again. I did not mind working a little extra because my co-worker had a bit of a problem with a slow internet connection when he was working remotely. I was confident he would more than make it up later. I did enjoy my work day in spite of his absence.

Re: Fog Creek’s Remote Work Policy

#60

Post by slantyyz » Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 4:56 AM UTC

parennoob wrote: post #36

mistermann wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your opinion would it be safe to assume employee morale at Fog Creek is low due to working in such an obviously tyrannical environment?

Employee morale at my local McDonald's is tremendous. They also have tons of these micro-managey rules. Does that mean you would instantly want to work there?

Well, if I was working at a low morale Taco Bell, then yeah, I think I would want to work at your local McD's.

Otherwise, asking someone who works in technology if they want to work in fast food is kinda pointless.