PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds • Hacker News Board

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#51

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 11:01 AM UTC

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #38

People should start to understand that crowdfunding is not a trivial business from a legal and regulatory perspective. Yes, PayPal sucks, but you can run into this crap with any bank or payment service provider you don't have clear and direct business dealings with, and who you haven't informed upfront about what you're up to. Also, it's just plain lazy and irresponsible of IndieGogo to pay out via PayPal, at least n…

I'm surprised PayPal still haven't taken a clear stance against crowdfunding like Amazon Payments have. That's part of the problem - it's really vague as to what situations PayPal will intervene in.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#52

Post by tinco » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 11:02 AM UTC

300bps wrote: post #30

zokier wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's the entire reasoning behind crowdfunding! They're not a crowdfunding service, they are a escrow service. The whole point of escrowing is that the service keeps the money safe until the transaction is completed (ie the buyer gets what she was buying).

I was under the impression that PayPal was a payment service. Party A uses it to send money to Party B and as long as no laws are broken, PayPal keeps its nose out of other people's business. What makes you think PayPal is an escrow service akin to escrow.com?

It is an escrow service because it allows the buyer to reverse the transaction.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#53

Post by mootothemax » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 11:06 AM UTC

HerraBRE wrote: post #44

mootothemax wrote: post #34

They just don't want to, and we cannot help but wonder why. The risk of complaints, refunds, and chargebacks for non-delivery would be my guess. "Please provide an itemized budget and your development goal dates for your project" This puts us in an incredibly uncomfortable position... ...of having a roadmap for your product's development. It's really not unreasonable, and if you don't have even a vague idea right now…

Note that they had previously stated that they wanted to release the funds as slowly as possible. Asking us to provide a detailed budget is basically asking us to justify that and give them a timetable so they can withhold the maximum amount of cash for the maximum amount of time.

Note that they had previously stated that they wanted to release the funds as slowly as possible. Asking us to provide a detailed budget is basically asking us to justify that

None of this contradicts my point about mitigating risk, nor that it's a Very Good Idea to have even the most basic of development roadmaps.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#54

Post by HarrietJones » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 11:06 AM UTC

mootothemax wrote: post #34

They just don't want to, and we cannot help but wonder why. The risk of complaints, refunds, and chargebacks for non-delivery would be my guess. "Please provide an itemized budget and your development goal dates for your project" This puts us in an incredibly uncomfortable position... ...of having a roadmap for your product's development. It's really not unreasonable, and if you don't have even a vague idea right now…

Mailpile sets off alarm bells for me. The web page seems big on promises, and decent webmail isn't the eaiest thing in the world to make a decent UI for. Never mind that it's all wrapped around some kind of seamless background application.

I'm doubtful that they'll do what they think they can do. Good luck to them, but I'm unsuprised that paypal has witheld funds.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#55

Post by emiliobumachar » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 11:07 AM UTC

ollysb wrote: post #35

The problem here is that crowd-funding is a risky business and as things stand paypal has to shoulder that risk. What we need is a type of transaction where the payer/crowdfunder assumes the risk, i.e. chargebacks are not allowed.

Textbook Bitcoin.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#56

Post by gaius » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 11:08 AM UTC

downandout wrote: post #37

I don't know why, in 2013, people are surprised when they use PayPal and wind up without access to the money for months or years. Paypal apologists will say that this is relatively rare. Even if that is true, since the criteria they use to take these actions are often beyond the control of merchants, using PayPal is an unacceptable risk for any business that doesn't have at least 6 months of working capital. Always a…

What should they use - Google Checkout? https://support.google.com/checkout/sell/answer/3080449?hl=e...

For better or worse, Paypal has survived and looks like it's going to go on surviving, that's why people if they only support one method, choose it.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#57

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 11:10 AM UTC

ollysb wrote: post #35

The problem here is that crowd-funding is a risky business and as things stand paypal has to shoulder that risk. What we need is a type of transaction where the payer/crowdfunder assumes the risk, i.e. chargebacks are not allowed.

Exactly. It's turned out that the only way to charge for things online is using credit cards, so everyone is exposed to the chargeback risk.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#58

Post by HerraBRE » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 11:13 AM UTC

mootothemax wrote: post #53

HerraBRE wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that they had previously stated that they wanted to release the funds as slowly as possible. Asking us to provide a detailed budget is basically asking us to justify that and give them a timetable so they can withhold the maximum amount of cash for the maximum amount of time.

Note that they had previously stated that they wanted to release the funds as slowly as possible. Asking us to provide a detailed budget is basically asking us to justify that None of this contradicts my point about mitigating risk, nor that it's a Very Good Idea to have even the most basic of development roadmaps.

Sure, but we have no reason to give those details to PayPal, and very good reasons not to.

Edit: Delaying payments by months is not acceptable or reasonable. There are tax implications (we have to deal with multiple jurisdictions) and opportunity costs. Also, this very obviously goes against the wishes of our community of backers - they are supporting a free software development project, not buying a product.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#59

Post by mootothemax » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 11:16 AM UTC

HerraBRE wrote: post #58

mootothemax wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that they had previously stated that they wanted to release the funds as slowly as possible. Asking us to provide a detailed budget is basically asking us to justify that None of this contradicts my point about mitigating risk, nor that it's a Very Good Idea to have even the most basic of development roadmaps.

Sure, but we have no reason to give those details to PayPal, and very good reasons not to. Edit: Delaying payments by months is not acceptable or reasonable. There are tax implications (we have to deal with multiple jurisdictions) and opportunity costs. Also, this very obviously goes against the wishes of our community of backers - they are supporting a free software development project, not buying a product.

Sure, but we have no reason to give those details to PayPal

You'll reduce your risk profile, and increase your chances of receiving payment inside the next year.

and very good reasons not to

Aside from potentially delayed payouts, what are your other good reasons?

Edit, replying to your edit:

Our community of backers... are supporting a free software development project, not buying a product

Do you know for a fact that all of your backers 100% understand the difference?

Do you also know for 100% that you will receive no complaints, no refund requests, and no chargebacks in the event that you don't deliver?

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#60

Post by reustle » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 11:20 AM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #21

> They just don't want to, and we cannot help but wonder why. > Crowd funding is an adventure. I don't think PayPal are as enthusiastic in joining you in an "adventure" as you think. Especially if that adventure includes credit card chargebacks.

Sounds like an opportunity to create a crowdfunding site that only accepts cash in the mail. But then, I'm sure you open up a whole new can of worms.