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A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

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Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#51

Post by roarroar »

vacri wrote: post #26
roarroar wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Fire Uchigatna+6 or +7 makes Four Kings easy if you have 20 estus flasks and plenty of vitality. Since this weapon doesn't scale with stats you barely have to alter your build to use it. I'm not saying it's the only viable build, nor the only fun one. I'm saying that the builds aren't exactly a work of genius, which is I suppose unavoidable when on your first run there are basically zero clues as to what's to come.…

This is basically how everyone who really loves the game plays it anyway No, it's not - NG+ is much easier than NG, because you start decked with all your previous equipment. People who really love the game do NG runs staying at level 1. I've put in lots of hours, and NG+ is dull because you already have anything and can go anywhere. The challenge is gone.

Do you bother trying to understand what was meant before replying? How, after reading my post, was your take away "everyone plays NG+" (something anyone who plays the game knows is false)? The point is that people replay the game knowing what is to come, with everything already foreshadowed, and consequently being able to make much more informed choices. Whether you happen to be on NG+ or not is completely independent of this statement, and wasn't intended to be implied, which is why I said "second third playthroughs" in that sentence not "NG+". It's like you read just one phrase out of my post and responded to it out of context to prove some kind of point.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#52

Post by roarroar »

tomlu wrote: post #17

The author neglected to mention my favourite trap in Sen's fortress. There's an elevator you can get on that if you don't get off in time will bring you headfirst into a bunch of spikes. The genius part is the elevator floor is covered in blood, a hint you would certainly notice if you take your time and proceed cautiously. This is the sort of thing that makes every death feel deserved, which is pivotal to the souls…

You're being very selective. What is the hint that Demon Firesage is weak to fire? What is the hint that Gwyn is parryable - unlike every other boss in the game? etc

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#53

Post by axblount »

vacri wrote: post #26
roarroar wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Fire Uchigatna+6 or +7 makes Four Kings easy if you have 20 estus flasks and plenty of vitality. Since this weapon doesn't scale with stats you barely have to alter your build to use it. I'm not saying it's the only viable build, nor the only fun one. I'm saying that the builds aren't exactly a work of genius, which is I suppose unavoidable when on your first run there are basically zero clues as to what's to come.…

This is basically how everyone who really loves the game plays it anyway No, it's not - NG+ is much easier than NG, because you start decked with all your previous equipment. People who really love the game do NG runs staying at level 1. I've put in lots of hours, and NG+ is dull because you already have anything and can go anywhere. The challenge is gone.

I too quit in NG+, but mostly because I was tired of pulling my hair out. I've heard lots of people say that NG+ is easier... until four kings.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#54

Post by sullichin »

roarroar wrote: post #43
vacri wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just not true. You can play the game fine without the wiki, and I did so on my first playthrough... with a kb+mouse. You just can't min/max without the wiki. And if you want to PvP, then sure, you need to min/max... but if you're PvPing, you're going to be going to a wiki anyway.

What's not true? I didn't say you were forced as some kind of hard requirement to use the wiki - just that the use of the wiki forces you out of the game and that it is clearly designed to be used in conjunction with a wiki. It should be taken as read that it can be played without it. I mean, who wrote the wiki? The requirement for guessing and repeating segments is just so high that it detracts from the experience.…

- Demon Firesage isn't particularly weak to fire. And what does it matter? You don't need a fire weapon to kill him. You also don't need to parry Gwyn to beat him, so why does it need to be spelled out? Although there is often a message by the door that says Try Parrying.

The game isn't really about trying a bunch of stuff until you find the "right" way to beat an area. If you think your best bet is to go everywhere and pick up every item, then you don't have a very good understanding of the character building mechanics. Of course the game does not go out of its way to explain its mechanics, and whether that is genius or bad design is up to you I guess. There are plenty of other games that hand-hold and don't have the time investment requirement of Dark Souls. I feel like Dark Souls respects the player much more than those games, because you truly do have the freedom to make your own choices.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#55

Post by sullichin »

guizzy wrote: post #37
simias wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I love both games but it's casual nethack as far as I'm concerned: it's very difficult to enjoy the games without a minimal amount of spoilers. I went blind for my first run in both games, and while I could finish demon's souls with a minimal amount of grinding I hit a wall in DaS because some upgrade paths are simply dead ends. Leveling up resistance, for instance. Certain weapon's upgrade paths. And you ha…

Indeed. The OP's link praises the way the game branches at the very beginning and teaches you to go up first, but the way up was not nearly as obvious to me as it seems to have been for him. I had to use a walkthrough. Most RPGs, when they take you out of a tutorial, have you facing the way you need to go. It's very unintuitive (and I'd say bad design) to force me to do a 180 right from the start and go the opposite…

Well, one way has incredibly durable skeletons who can kill you in two hits, and another way has the same enemies that you fought in the tutorial... It's not that obtuse.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#56

Post by sullichin »

jackmaney wrote: post #49
sullichin wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Dark Souls, kb/m is by far the inferior control scheme.

Yes, that's why the game is horribly, horribly broken.

I see. I have a lot of PC games that I feel control much better with a gamepad. It's a third person action game with analog character movement. In this case an analog stick is far superior than WASD movement/modifier keys.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#57

Post by guizzy »

sullichin wrote: post #55
guizzy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. The OP's link praises the way the game branches at the very beginning and teaches you to go up first, but the way up was not nearly as obvious to me as it seems to have been for him. I had to use a walkthrough. Most RPGs, when they take you out of a tutorial, have you facing the way you need to go. It's very unintuitive (and I'd say bad design) to force me to do a 180 right from the start and go the opposite…

Well, one way has incredibly durable skeletons who can kill you in two hits, and another way has the same enemies that you fought in the tutorial... It's not that obtuse.

Of course once I went up it was obvious that it was where I needed to go, but I needed a tutorial to tell me there even was another way but down. The guy by the bonfire does mention something of the sort, but I thought he was referring to the ruins right next to the bonfire. When you spawn after the tutorial, you spawn facing the slope that goes down.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#58

Post by Rickasaurus »

dsuth wrote: post #31
Rickasaurus wrote: post #4

Having played both Demon and Dark souls, I think Demon souls was only better in that it flushed out the Maiden and the monumentals in a way which was deliberate and set the tone of the game. Dark Souls could have used something along these lines, but in every other respect it's the better game. From the improved enemy AI, to balance in the weapons and crafting, to the variety of locations and enemies, and don't forge…

If you like the feel of Dark Souls, try Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, if you have a Wii U or 3DS. The theme is very different, but the game is very similar in terms of difficulty, crafting, and multiplayer. It also sports, quite literally, the most finely tuned difficulty ramp I have ever come across in a game. Every new challenge will be amazingly tough, yet fair. The boss creatures are very inventive too. It ranks equ…

Oh man, have you seen that new Monster Hunter Online game out in Asia? I'm so jealous.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#59

Post by cheald »

jackmaney wrote: post #44
alex_c wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes... the PC version should come with a giant red warning that says "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PLAY THIS WITHOUT A CONTROLLER". There's still a learning curve even with a controller, but once past that the controls have a beautiful simplicity and responsiveness that I've seen in very few other games.

What's the point of playing a PC game with a controller? If I wanted to play a game with inferior controls, I would just use a console.

Some games are built to be played with controllers. I've got a Steambox hooked up in my living room with a wireless XBox controller dongle, so I can fire it up in big picture mode and play controller-oriented games from the comfort of my couch, then go into my office and play an FPS on the same Steam account with kb+m. I also have a wired Xbox controller in my office if I don't feel like moving to the big screen. Both work equally well.

The "everything on one account" approach is really, really nice. All my save information is transparently synced across devices, and I can buy something from my computer (or even from my phone) and play it in my living room without any hassle.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#60

Post by cheald »

quanticle wrote: post #22
mekpro wrote: post #14

I found that most of the fun in this game can be easily destroyed by FAQs and Youtube. I myself get very frustrated by Sen Fortress's Bonfire that i can't resist the urge to get an answer from wiki. After read this, I find myself regretted because i had missed the crucial experience of this game. Explore or dead ! I wish I could forget everything about this game so that I can innocently play it from the start again.

This is why I play randomized rougelikes, like Nethack, or more recently, Torchlight. You can't make spoilers for a game that randomizes its levels.

If you like roguelikes, check out Binding of Isaac. I can't figure out why it's so compelling, but boy howdy, is it ever.
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