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Wildfire threatening the power grid that supplies San Francisco

npr.org

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Re: Wildfire threatening the power grid that supplies San Francisco

#51

Post by 001sky »

joering2 wrote: post #48
hga wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Errrm, this translates into a "making large drones" problem. Which has a whole set of additional problems, e.g. what are you going to say to the survivors of a devastated neighborhood when a big drone with lots of water crashes into it? I'm not saying its insurmountable, just that it's way beyond the current levels of both drone technology and acceptance.

The biggest problem fighting fires are lethal to humans high temperatures and lack of easy access to places affected. Those two problems would be irrelevant to properly designed drones that can easy maneuver and are built from temperature-resistant materials. Instead of huge drone carrying water (we already have planes to do that now), I was envision a network of connected drones that "pass by" the water as they hove…

You either need large payloads or large numbers, but Thousands of drones flying around would likely lead to accidents. Accidents woudl likely lead to new fires, considering most of these things are happening in areas that are tinderboxes with significant aggrivating factors (high winds, exposure, etc).

The strategy for containing these fires is typically fuel deprivation, rather than "flame extinguishment" which is so difficult if not impossible for the above reasons. The guys that jump out of planes to fight backcountry fires, for example, are armed with axes and saws. Absent something like a star-wars (AT-AT) its not clear a direct frontal confrontation is pyhsically feasible, even from the air, for many fires.

Re: Wildfire threatening the power grid that supplies San Francisco

#52

Post by tehwalrus »

hga wrote: post #41
tehwalrus wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... molten salt reactors (the kind in the comment at the top of this thread) are at atmospheric pressure, and are designed with a drain plug which isolates the (very hot) materials from the neutron source, after which they cool down happily on their own in a separate but similarly shielded compartment. release of materials is one of the most unlikely outcomes ever .

You really can't imagine a release of materials outcome in the context of active sabotage? (Which is relevant in the context of massive distributed ones; current nuclear power systems mitigate this by being few in number such that they can be well guarded.)

since you can't weaponise the mixture, and it's just stupidly hot and dangerous for a while and then inert, I can't see why anyone would try to sabotage one. (apart from terrorists just out to cause mayhem, but that argument also works for cars, roads, planes, train stations, etc right?)

Re: Wildfire threatening the power grid that supplies San Francisco

#53

Post by argumentum »

hga wrote: post #16
argumentum wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd hope the first thing to come to mind is how to build the technology. Once it's built, we can start worrying about how to protect it .. why protect something that doesn't exist?

Why build something if you can determine you can't adequately protect it?

Why build 3d printers if they could be used to make guns? Why invent bitcoin if it could be used to fund terrorism?

You make things because they are interesting to make, and could have a positive impact in the world. Protecting yourself from "the bad guys" is a secondary (or even tertiary) concern, unless the very purpose of the thing is to protect people from bad guys (for example a military fort).

Re: Wildfire threatening the power grid that supplies San Francisco

#54

Post by tomjen3 »

sliverstorm wrote: post #42
tomjen3 wrote: post #12

Damn. The powers that be better do something about this fast. SF is about one of the last places in the US to develop new things. Heck just a temporary prolonged outage of Google alone would have huge negative consequences for the US (not to mention the world). Amazon AWS US west is in Northeren California. I wonder how big the negative effect will be on just how many companies?

This sort of thing is EXACTLY WHY both Google and Amazon have datacenters all over the world.

Sure, except us west is only in NC and many businesses aren't likely to shift availability zones.

Re: Wildfire threatening the power grid that supplies San Francisco

#55

Post by sliverstorm »

tomjen3 wrote: post #54
sliverstorm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of thing is EXACTLY WHY both Google and Amazon have datacenters all over the world.

Sure, except us west is only in NC and many businesses aren't likely to shift availability zones.

If you host a site that needs five nines or whatever in only one availability zone, it's your own darn fault.

Re: Wildfire threatening the power grid that supplies San Francisco

#56

Post by Questioneer »

hga wrote: post #38
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the materials be released? The reactors operate near 1 Atmosphere. If they are switched off, the molten salt cools and solidifies. There could be a risk of contamination from the cooling loop, but such contamination might even be less than the normal radioactive fallout from the flues of coal plants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge

That's an answer to how almost anything can be released.

Petrol from a tanker? Shaped charge.

Cracking armored vehicle? Shaped charge.

Unlocking stuck door? Shaped charge.

It really does seem people try to downplay any potential reactor designs because global thermonuclear war may damage the reactor. Stop living in fear.

Re: Wildfire threatening the power grid that supplies San Francisco

#57

Post by Questioneer »

hga wrote: post #16
argumentum wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd hope the first thing to come to mind is how to build the technology. Once it's built, we can start worrying about how to protect it .. why protect something that doesn't exist?

Why build something if you can determine you can't adequately protect it?

Why live when you could die suddenly?

Re: Wildfire threatening the power grid that supplies San Francisco

#58

Post by pyre »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #5
hkmurakami wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember talking to one of the rangers at Yosemite, near one of the natural lakes that eventually supply water to SF. I remember him saying that he tells visitors who go answer nature's call at the lake to think twice, since they're going to be drinking this very water soon.

What did he say about drinking fish shit? And the effluent of every other critter in the park?

I think that it has more to do with the idea that humans moving through that area would do much more damage (than the local animal population) if they were not discouraged in some way.

Re: Wildfire threatening the power grid that supplies San Francisco

#59

Post by pyre »

cdash wrote: post #9
hkmurakami wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember talking to one of the rangers at Yosemite, near one of the natural lakes that eventually supply water to SF. I remember him saying that he tells visitors who go answer nature's call at the lake to think twice, since they're going to be drinking this very water soon.

Just as astronauts on the ISS drink their own piss, it is nothing but in our minds.

Drinking your own piss is different than drinking someone else's piss. :P

Re: Wildfire threatening the power grid that supplies San Francisco

#60

Post by pyre »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #44
tomsaffell wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the NPR article is alarmist, verging on irresponsible. A few facts, with sources: - The water coming out of Hetchy Hetchy is still well within the 'usable' range [1] - The total loss of power is 293 MW (Holm and Kirkwood), which is a tiny percentage of the power generated in CA [1,2] - The SF PUC is already dealing with the loss of those 293 MW: San Francisco is making up the difference in power generation by ac…

Its only alarmist if it doesn't get worse :-) Seriously though, alarmist or not, its serious . This fire is growing and not contained. There exists a non-zero chance of it creating a serious impact into the available clean water supply. And this is to a county not exactly known for its fiscal responsibility or ability to respond well to crisis.

But at least San Francisco has maintained it's charm! That's what's really important.
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