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Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

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Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#51

Post by btilly »

jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

Before getting access to classified information, they also swore an oath to not reveal it. Even if they can't be sued (which I do not know is true), they'd still be breaking their sworn word.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#52

Post by dclusin »

discostrings wrote: post #26
jnbiche wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So their precious committee appointment is more important than their oath? Really, if that's all that's holding them back, then I've lost any respect I have for them. As things stand, they've been able to do very little to "fight these things" even sitting on the committee. What we need right now is to know the full extent of the damage. And they swore an oath to protect the constitution. Any fool can see what an exi…

Perhaps they believe that gaining the necessary amount of public attention and support requires these things to be revealed slowly and to consume many news cycles. I would argue that the pace things have been proceeding at has been perfect for those who generally don't pay attention to get a sense of how important an issue this is. If this had all been released at once, it would have been much easier to sweep under t…

This is why I think Snowden is such a sharp guy, because of the fact that he has been releasing documents slowly and methodically as opposed to a mega-dump wikileaks style disclosure. The basic problem is that a large share of the American public (such as my mom) get their information from exclusively one source. In my mother's case it's CNN, where there hasn't been very much coverage of this other than the odd report here and there. For instance looking at CNN right now the main headline is an article about this most recent school shooting, and the NSA revelations are a small print link jumbled in with lots of other unrelated articles.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#53

Post by Zoomla »

jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

They don't want to go to jail, maybe.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#54

Post by throwawaykf02 »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #24
throwawaykf02 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't "Freedom of Speech" always been about public speech? You alluded to it yourself when you said "freedom or the press". I don't see what invasion of privacy has to do with freedom of speech as the constitution means it.

I believe that you can't truly speak freely when you don't have any privacy. This from Wikipedia - Freedom of Speech: "Freedom of information is an extension of freedom of speech where the medium of expression is the Internet. Freedom of information may also refer to the right to privacy in the context of the Internet and information technology. As with the right to freedom of expression, the right to privacy is a re…

I looked through that wikipedia article as well as citations and related articles, but I can't see any logical connection between freedom of speech and right to privacy. Even though the passage mentions both in adjacent sentences, there is no logical relation. The only possible connection is that speech could be made over the Internet, and privacy could be affected by the Internet, which is tenuous at best.

There is something to be said about anonymity (or lack thereof) and free speech, but I believe anonymous free speech was never a guaranteed right -- the courts always tried to balance the right to anonymous free expression with other rights, such as the rights of those who might be harmed by that expression (e.g. in cases of defamation, fraud, etc.)

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#55

Post by ihsw »

gasull wrote: post #25
ihsw wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is all of congress tapped? All the governors? Snowden hinted at this. What the fuck is going on in my country? I'm going to assume the worst, which would be that the NSA is used as a tool of blackmail by nefarious parties whom the NSA relies on. Key House and Senate members put in a good word for the NSA and then they get some "free" information on their opponents, at which point they convince their opponents to "t…

They are blackmailing and targeting anyone that is in the way to their goal of total surveillance. This hasn't gotten enough attention: US targets lie-detector coaches following Edward Snowden affair http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1297622/us-targets-li...

That's hilariously bad. Polygraph examinations are awful, they're little else than measurements of how people deal with stress and there's no difference between "passing" the examination and "beating" it.

Personally I think it's appalling that they're still regarded as "lie detectors."

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#56

Post by throwawaykf02 »

mcphilip wrote: post #41
morpher wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you less impressed by small percentages than by numbers that are large only in the absence of a reference scale? It's generally not possible to design flawless systems, and failure rate a much more meaningful number.

I was looking for intelligent discussion about why even a small percentage failure rate is worth being alarmed at and how this can be communicated to Average Joe effectively. Instead, I get this inane straw man reply. Obviously a very small failure rate is impressive in the abstract. We're not talking about the abstract here, we're talking about foundational concerns about whether there can be an expectation of priva…

No. As long as people keep using the same online communications to plan inflicting harm on society as society does to exchange pictures of grandkids and recipes, those communications will keep being monitored, and thus we can have no expectation of privacy. Liberties have always been compromised for the sake of security, Benjamin Frankliin quotes notwithstanding.

But! Taking these numbers at face value, the low error rate tells us that, yes, we can have privacy with pretty high probability. As with all things in life, it is not guaranteed, but these are much better chances than what we can expect in other aspects of life. I mean, tens of thousands erroneously picked up over many months out of the billions of emails exchanged daily? Why, you're more likely to die in a terrorist attack than be snooped on [1]!

[1] No, I haven't run the numbers, just saying so for dramatic effect :-P

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#57

Post by einhverfr »

Zoomla wrote: post #53
jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

They don't want to go to jail, maybe.

That would be an interesting trial.

If only we'd have politicians with the courage to take on such a crusade.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#58

Post by Amadou »

TruthElixirX wrote: post #45
beedogs wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the fuck is going on in my country? The short answer is that it isn't your country anymore .

It was never your country. You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. In the 80's it wasn't the country for gays. In the 50's it wasn't the country for non-whites. In the 1900's it wasn't the country for women. Before the 1900's it was only old white land owners. The ruling class has just expanded to not be exclusively old white men. And the oppres…

You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception.

We aren't even close to that. So far the NSA hasn't done anything like beat someone and leave them to die in the road.

I'm totally on board with the idea that pervasive surveillance smothers society if for no other reason than its presence causes self-censorship like the groklaw situation. But until it comes out that the NSA has been maiming and killing innocents we aren't on the level of what those minorities have had to suffer.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#59

Post by einhverfr »

mcphilip wrote: post #12

Cue praise from the majority of the main stream media that only tens of thousands of communications are improperly monitored since there are roughly 150 billion emails sent per day (globally). The surveillance program will be declared a stunning success and most people will agree since they are impressed by small percentages. The error rate being so low will imply, to most people, that the NSA is painstakingly concer…

I think the argument is very simple, really.

Prior to the American Revolution, British Magistrates were giving the police "general warrants" that let them search whatever they wanted and this lead to all kinds of abuses of power. This is why we require that search warrants are reasonably scoped.

We have come full circle (ironically our most recent "President George" was the third President named George, so I like to affectionately call him President George III) back to a time of general warrants. We can expect that the same kinds of abuses of power will occur.

This means, effectively that the government can decide that someone is an annoyance to them and then look back at all of their communications for evidence of a crime, and then try the individual for very vague crimes in court. Checked face book at work? Are you guilty of using your work computer in excess of what your employer authorized? Worse is it wire fraud?

In the end we end up in a world dominated by government officials who can and will adopt the same mentality of Stalin's chief of police, Beria, who was purportedly quoted as saying "show me the man and I'll find you the crime."

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#60

Post by mentat »

jnbiche wrote: post #46
olefoo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wyden & Udall are constrained by their roles within the system; they have both been trying to encourage people to ask the right questions, but they are not going to break the laws they are sworn to uphold. What we need is an independent congressional commission with the power to unilaterally declassify information that is not directly related to ongoing operations ( i.e. anything naming specific operatives or live in…

Just to be clear, the only thing that Udall and Wyden are actually sworn to is this oath: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully dis…

They swore other oaths when getting clearances to be sure.
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