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Loyalty and Layoffs

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Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#51

Post by lelandbatey »

dkuntz2 wrote: post #37
chrischen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should consider the possibility that the fame was necessary for his personal self-preservation. If he didn't make himself famous, the gov't could potentially do very bad things to him and no one would notice, or care. The publicity could have been his greatest and only weapon against the US.

How was fame necessary for his self-preservation? If nobody knew who leaked how is revealing himself useful? Deep Throat never needed to reveal himself to the world. Things seemed to go fairly well for him. There are better ways to make sure people don't do bad things to you than tell the whole world that you were the leak. A simple program that requires daily interaction that sends an email to one of the people he l…

There are basically two ways that this information leaking game goes down:

The first is to play it sneaky, being covert in your dealings and hoping against all Odds that you don't screw up and get silently caught.

The second is to do everything in the extreme public eye, so that the accumulated eyes of the world are watching you, but also watching out for you.

Both are totally legitimate paths, but the public one has a higher survival rate. It's what I would've done.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#52

Post by tptacek »

vladimirralev wrote: post #48
dwrowe wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to re-read the gp comment. Knowing what you're worth is different than what companies value your worth. A company may undervalue or overvalue your work - the responsibility is on you to determine if you're getting screwed or not - it isn't dependent on what others are getting.

I think I understand correctly. What I was trying to say is that if I am able to determine that I am being screwed over, this is management's fault and not my fault. It's management's responsibility to fix it. I shouldn't have to hire salary researchers and lawyers with my own money to create a report that I can use as an argument for my manager to consider it. And definitely must not put me in conflicting position w…

Well then, you can continue to be controlled economically by your employers, because nobody in the market --- nobody --- is putting your own individual interests before those of the company, except for you.

Personally, I wouldn't want an employer going through lots of effort to figure out what's best for me. I think they'd do a crappy job of it.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#53

Post by NoodleIncident »

jes wrote: post #49
tokenizer wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, even though it's not really "even" considering they're profiting off your work (unless you're a necessary evil). I guess you get some other perks if you're not bound to a horrible contract, like paid sick time and vacation. Personally, I go about things in the same way, but hope I get a union job I just applied for. IMO, that changes the whole solidarity/loyalty relationship.

If someone offers you a job, for a certain wage, and you accept it freely, how are you not even when you get everything that you agreed upon? Alternatively, if the business makes losses rather than profits, would you kick in your share to keep things even?

That's called a startup.

/s

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#54

Post by jes »

moron4hire wrote: post #7

At some point in the last 5 years, sitting in my pen--ahem, I mean cubicle--I came to the realization that the the subject noun of the term "Human Resources" is "Resources" not "Humans". If you think your boss is your friend, he's either a shitty boss or a shitty friend.

Can you explain why only the two outcomes you list are the only ones possible?

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#55

Post by rdtsc »

vladimirralev wrote: post #45
rdtsc wrote: post #40

Remember if anyone promised you verbally any financial windfall in exchange for loyalty, no matter how charismatic they are don't fall for it. In the end they would end up most likely not delivering (and of course they will blame on an external scapegoated 3rd party for it). It is a good idea to always be read to leave. Don't burn bridges but don't assume the company you work for is your family. Why? They extract dou…

I'd always give my manager a chance to keep their promise. If they fail and start making excuses instead of taking responsibility, I can also work with that, but it's not going to be the same in terms of motivation and productivity. Many managers got their education straight from Dilbert or the movies. They think screwing you over and maintaining ambiguity is "business-savvy". It's well known that employees will grow…

I (hopefully) learned from mistakes of others. My friend got burned. He was promised a "share of the profits" if company gets sold, he was young, after college, his boss knew how to take advantage of him. Sure enough company gets sold. Most good people had left (except as it turns out the others who also got promised privately large exclusive! windfalls). In the end it was, of course, blame on some technicality. "Sure I would have given you those millions, if it wasn't for the lawyers, those pesky lawyers, wouldn't you just want to drown them, sheesh...", stuff like that. Oh well, he runs his own company now, but it was a valuable lesson.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#56

Post by nostrademons »

vladimirralev wrote: post #48
dwrowe wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to re-read the gp comment. Knowing what you're worth is different than what companies value your worth. A company may undervalue or overvalue your work - the responsibility is on you to determine if you're getting screwed or not - it isn't dependent on what others are getting.

I think I understand correctly. What I was trying to say is that if I am able to determine that I am being screwed over, this is management's fault and not my fault. It's management's responsibility to fix it. I shouldn't have to hire salary researchers and lawyers with my own money to create a report that I can use as an argument for my manager to consider it. And definitely must not put me in conflicting position w…

And what the article and several commenters are saying is that it absolutely is your responsibility. Why? Because you can control your own actions, you can't control management's. Management isn't obligated to pay you anything, and you aren't obligated to work for them. They choose to pay you something and you choose to work for them; you also choose how much to work for them, and your choice might relate to how much they choose to pay you (and if they continue to choose to pay you).

Leaving is absolutely the right choice if the amount they're willing to pay you is wildly out of whack with the effort you're putting in and value you're creating, because it frees your time up to work for somebody else who will value you (and pay you) more. Everybody wins.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#57

Post by trustfundbaby »

So much truth in that post, though I found it a bit histrionic. but I can't stress this enough, (especially for young developers) work hard but keep your eyes open.

Remember to ask yourself, "if this startup/firm/company went to shit tomorrow, what would happen to me?" ... if you think that people at that firm are going to take care of you when things get bad ... slap yourself. Just like in the OP, you might luck out and have someone care enough to give you a soft landing, but that is the exception and not the rule. Always make sure you don't get caught out there,

- passively scan the market every 18 months and go on an interview or two. At worst you'll realize how much you're being taken advantage of, at best you'll realize how lucky you are to have your job.

- Stay in touch with direct contacts at companies that sound interesting who reach out to you, especially on linkedin (I ignore 3rd party developers). If they took the time to reach out to you, just respond with a "Hey I'm not really looking to leave right now but lets stay in touch". Grab coffee with them, and find out what they're up to. This way if everything goes to crap you have a warm lead for gigs, instead of competing with your teammates to get your resume in front of hiring managers in your city

- Keep developing your skills, get on mainstream technologies right after they go mainstream/hit critical, that will make it easier to not chase every shiny new fad. That will increase your marketability and make it easier for you to find opportunities that your peers will not

Above all, don't let being an engineer blind you to company politics. Pay attention to whats happening, read the tea leaves so you can be ahead of bad news ESPECIALLY if you are an immigrant. This has served me well over the years. Once I quit a job because I got a bad feeling that new management cared more about head count than quality ... lo and behold, my replacement was laid off just 6 months after being hired.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#58

Post by vladimirralev »

tptacek wrote: post #52
vladimirralev wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I understand correctly. What I was trying to say is that if I am able to determine that I am being screwed over, this is management's fault and not my fault. It's management's responsibility to fix it. I shouldn't have to hire salary researchers and lawyers with my own money to create a report that I can use as an argument for my manager to consider it. And definitely must not put me in conflicting position w…

Well then, you can continue to be controlled economically by your employers, because nobody in the market --- nobody --- is putting your own individual interests before those of the company, except for you. Personally, I wouldn't want an employer going through lots of effort to figure out what's best for me. I think they'd do a crappy job of it.

I've been a consultant for a while now and I have this conversation every week or so. What you said goes both ways, nobody has your company's best interest over their personal interest. So you better have my best interest in mind if you want me to have your best interest in mind. It's only fair :)

The employer doesn't have to figure out what's best for you. What's best for them is also best for you. Like almost everybody else, I am driven by respect. If the company measures performance based on profit, so do I. If it's a non-profit, so am I. If you give me what you value most I will do the same. Can't go wrong with that.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#59

Post by x0x0 »

valnour wrote: post #28

The "400+" employee lay-off that the author referenced was this one: http://timesfreepress.com/news/2013/aug/16/layoffs-hit-chatt... There was a lot more to the lay-off than the company losing their primary income model This happened in my hometown (Chattanooga, Tennessee).

wow. fta:

   Before New York regulators cut the businesses off from the automated 
   clearing house system in early August, the payday conglomerate made 
   short-term loans over the Internet that typically became due — with interest 
   — on the customer’s next payday. Different U.S. states have widely divergent 
   laws governing the interest rates that lenders are allowed to charge, and 
   Brown often ran afoul of these regulations.
   
   He has been sued in several states for making loans with interest rates well 
   above the legal limit, was the subject of a class-action lawsuit for sending 
   thousands of spam text messages and was investigated by federal authorities.
   
   Brown was forced to stop making loans in Tennessee following a series of 
   Times Free Press articles in 2011 and 2012 that showed he was making loans 
   with an interest rate in excess of what the state allowed, and was doing so 
   without a license.
I kind of just want to point and laugh; apparently karma does (slowly) come around.

Re: Loyalty and Layoffs

#60

Post by imechura »

May I please add a comment from outside the bubble? It does not have to be this way. My current employer is a low cost travel company, we are celebrating our 43rd anniversary as a company. In these 43 years not a single person has been laid off. Not one janitor, not one programmer, not one reservations agent.

We do not have a planetarium. We do not have a movie theater. We do not offer free food to our employees every day. We do not as a policy, pay for our employees' day care. We do not implement the latest and greatest technologies on a whim because we think they are cool.

We do offer one of the best, IMO, health care plans in the industry. We do respect our employees, vendors and co-workers. We do offer generous retirements benefits. We do work very hard to use technology to solve problems that are as or more difficult than your favorite silicon valley startup. We do take into account the ability to sustain every single employee for the next 20 years into every decision we make. We do treat every employee like they are a member of our family and will continue to for the next 43 years.

Consider all of the above when you are looking for a new job or starting a new company.

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