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Is There A Giant Life Form Lurking In Our Solar System? Possibly, Say Scientists

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51–60 of 61 posts

Re: Is There A Giant Life Form Lurking In Our Solar System? Possibly, Say Scientists

#51
post #18

I'm still having a hard time contemplating the fact that WE exist. Sitting in front of our flat monitors with access to nearly all information which is stored all around planet Earth. Phones that connect us to billions of people. Brains large enough to hypothesize the creation of the universe. We can create rockets that send probes to other planets and even the edge of our solar system. We regularly travel around in…

Meanwhile, this dog is doing science. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAKS7mQTw0k

Re: Is There A Giant Life Form Lurking In Our Solar System? Possibly, Say Scientists

#52
post #11
post #4

To be cynical, a lot of things are possible. It's possible that anaerobic bacteria still live in small pockets beneath the surface of Mars. It's possible, if unlikely, that extremophiles survive on the sweltering surface of Venus, or floating in its sulphurous clouds. Of course, the fact that these things are possible is still incredibly cool. While this article lacks much technical substance, this is the kind of thi…

Floating in the clouds of Venus, sure. There's some semi-Earthlike zones in the cloud layer. On the surface, very probably not. It is unlikely that there is any structure that could pump entropy out of the cell faster than the horrific surface environment of Venus would be pumping it in. (More conventionally known as heat, but I find this formulation helps focus on the fact that "too hot" really is an intrinsic probl…

It has always intrigued me that we consider the possibility of other life forms in a manner that is largely relative to our understanding of life on earth and, hence, biology. But, even our understanding of DNA need not be applicable to other life forms.

I don't see why there has to be any real limitation on conditions or otherwise. As the article mentions, we have been surprised to find extremophiles near thermal vents right here on Earth (which reach temperatures roughly equivalent to the Venusian surface). There we find, for instance, bacteria that rely upon hydrogen sulfide vs sunlight for energy. This is what we consider a "harsh" environment of chemicals, heat, pressure, etc. However, when we attempt to remove organisms from that environment to study them, they usually die pretty quickly. In other words, ours is the harsh environment as far as they are concerned.

Elsewhere, we have found organisms whose DNA was thought to be composed of arsenic vs phosphorous. While this was ultimately refuted, for a period we once again thought we'd discovered something that, in an instant, completely changed our understanding of life.

So, I guess my point is that we assume life must conform to certain requirements and/or conditions until we find life forms that violate our assumptions. Given a Universe as vast and diverse as our own, I sincerely believe that anything is possible and perhaps even likely.

Re: Is There A Giant Life Form Lurking In Our Solar System? Possibly, Say Scientists

#53
post #24
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It did take us a long time to get here though. Luckily things build on each other and we're good at patterns.

A relatively long time compared to our day to day lives. Is it possible for other organisms to perceive time differently than we do or is time pretty much fixed? Also, I'd be willing to bet that our sex drive had a decent role in evolution. Basically be strong, smart, and acquire stuff so we can put our dicks into pretty females.

It seems you haven't read Mr. Dawkins yet.

Start with "The Selfish Gene", his best IMO.

Have fun!

Re: Is There A Giant Life Form Lurking In Our Solar System? Possibly, Say Scientists

#54

The entire article is based on this sentence "Thus, life on Titan could involve huge (by Earth standards) and very slowly metabolizing cells, in which case biomass densities would be higher than calculated above." which the author interprets as "a life form in our solar system that's not a puny, dumb little thing, but a huge dumb thing. Like dog-sized. Or maybe Volkswagen-sized." I'm sorry.. but a "huge by (earth sta…

Yeah with "giant" and "lurking" I was hoping for hints of a planet-sized creature existing in dark matter or some interdimensional plane or extreme wavelength or something. Title is a bit link-baity.

This is exactly what I thought as well. An interesting twist is to think whether we'd consider our entire universe to be alive - perhaps like an egg with an embryo in it. There you go, you have the "hugest" thing possible :)

Re: Is There A Giant Life Form Lurking In Our Solar System? Possibly, Say Scientists

#55
post #18

I'm still having a hard time contemplating the fact that WE exist. Sitting in front of our flat monitors with access to nearly all information which is stored all around planet Earth. Phones that connect us to billions of people. Brains large enough to hypothesize the creation of the universe. We can create rockets that send probes to other planets and even the edge of our solar system. We regularly travel around in…

> The next 100 years in general will be very fun.

Unless they are not.

For example, we might get a total surveillance society, ruled by a tyranny that cannot be overthrown, because it controls everyone's use of information. We seem to be heading that way now.

Or a bad singularity that turns the solar system into paperclips.

Or one of those old favourites, nuclear war and ecological catastrophe.

It is not obvious to me that humans will still be around in 100 years. Which would be sad considering we may be the only sapient life in the universe.

Re: Is There A Giant Life Form Lurking In Our Solar System? Possibly, Say Scientists

#57
post #18

I'm still having a hard time contemplating the fact that WE exist. Sitting in front of our flat monitors with access to nearly all information which is stored all around planet Earth. Phones that connect us to billions of people. Brains large enough to hypothesize the creation of the universe. We can create rockets that send probes to other planets and even the edge of our solar system. We regularly travel around in…

There is a massive difference between "possible" and "possible with a small but non-trivial probability". This is evidence for the hypothesis that there is life on Titan. Weak evidence, but it still increases the probability enough to actually start speculating and possibly justify further research.

Re: Is There A Giant Life Form Lurking In Our Solar System? Possibly, Say Scientists

#58
post #36

Evolution. It is why native alien life is unlikely to exist in our own solar system. You see, once life gets started, this process we call evolution takes place. Life takes on a myriad of complex forms. It covers the planet, gradually adapting to survive and thrive on nearly every patch of land. And behold, the planet is transformed. There is only one planet in our solar system where this has happened. If life had st…

That's ridiculous. There is no law that says evolution can optimize itself out of any constraint. And even if it does, it might not look like much. For example there are tons of bacteria in the sky just floating in the wind, but unless you look closely you'd pretty much never know. And for most of Earth's history you wouldn't have seen multicellular life. It took a long time for the giant forests you see to evolve. And even then, you don't have that kind of massive biomass in places like Antarctica or deep underground.

Evolution is a pretty tricky thing. If some improvement can't easily be reached through iterative random improvements, then it won't be. And it easily gets stuck in local maximas where little or no improvements are made for ridiculously long periods of time. It's like getting to the top of the hill. There might be a mountain in the distance, but there is no path that leads to it without first going down off the current hill.

Re: Is There A Giant Life Form Lurking In Our Solar System? Possibly, Say Scientists

#59
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Floating in the clouds of Venus, sure. There's some semi-Earthlike zones in the cloud layer. On the surface, very probably not. It is unlikely that there is any structure that could pump entropy out of the cell faster than the horrific surface environment of Venus would be pumping it in. (More conventionally known as heat, but I find this formulation helps focus on the fact that "too hot" really is an intrinsic probl…

It has always intrigued me that we consider the possibility of other life forms in a manner that is largely relative to our understanding of life on earth and, hence, biology. But, even our understanding of DNA need not be applicable to other life forms. I don't see why there has to be any real limitation on conditions or otherwise. As the article mentions, we have been surprised to find extremophiles near thermal ve…

Information theory is a fundamental constraint on any halfway sensible theory of life. If you can't pump out entropy faster than it comes in, you will, by definition, be randomized, which pretty much by definition is not alive.

I know people think they're being sophisticated when they insist no limits can be placed on the form of life, but it's not true; it's naive. There are in fact certain very powerful and generic limits that can be placed on life with some powerful mathematics, such as the one I mentioned. It's fun to imagine a life form in science fiction that lives on the surface of the sun, but in reality they are not possible; there's no way they could retain any interesting structure in such a high entropy environment. To argue otherwise is basically to be arguing against thermodynamics. This basically puts this position firmly on the "crank" side, not the scientifically knowledgeable one.

Also, the idea that there are no limits on what life can look like is observationally false. The vast majority of places we look, we do not see life. Even if we manage to find a few simple life forms in a few of the slightly less hostile places in the solar system, it still won't change that fact; life is observationally not abundant everywhere, regardless of conditions. There definitely is a difference between conditions conducive to life and those not. Even what we call "extremophiles" are only surprising in purely local terms; in absolute terms in the Solar System, volcanic vents are still incredibly hospitable places compared to what is out there. In its own way, trying to argue from extremophiles to the general case is its own perversively parochial argument; the idea that extremophiles are actually "extreme" is a very terra-centric viewpoint.

Re: Is There A Giant Life Form Lurking In Our Solar System? Possibly, Say Scientists

#60
post #18

I'm still having a hard time contemplating the fact that WE exist. Sitting in front of our flat monitors with access to nearly all information which is stored all around planet Earth. Phones that connect us to billions of people. Brains large enough to hypothesize the creation of the universe. We can create rockets that send probes to other planets and even the edge of our solar system. We regularly travel around in…

> The next 100 years in general will be very fun. Unless they are not. For example, we might get a total surveillance society, ruled by a tyranny that cannot be overthrown, because it controls everyone's use of information. We seem to be heading that way now. Or a bad singularity that turns the solar system into paperclips. Or one of those old favourites, nuclear war and ecological catastrophe. It is not obvious to m…

Relevant xkcd (mostly the alt-text): http://xkcd.com/728/.
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