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The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

theatlantic.com

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Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#51

Post by danenania »

swombat wrote: post #25

If Google, Apple, Microsoft, Yahoo and Facebook simultaneously came out and published all statistics that the government is not allowing them to publish, and declared that they will continue to publish those as they come in and be entirely transparent about the tracking that the NSA asked of them, would their CEOs all go to jail, doing enormous damage to the stock market? I don't think so. I think the NSA would fold…

Yep, the NSA is on very thin ice right now and they know it. It's the perfect time to stand up to them. Large tech companies can do more than just release statistics. They can take principled stands against these disgusting programs in their entirety.

Executives who are still playing along at this point are just cowards.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#52

Post by pessimizer »

apalmer wrote: post #35
swombat wrote: post #25

If Google, Apple, Microsoft, Yahoo and Facebook simultaneously came out and published all statistics that the government is not allowing them to publish, and declared that they will continue to publish those as they come in and be entirely transparent about the tracking that the NSA asked of them, would their CEOs all go to jail, doing enormous damage to the stock market? I don't think so. I think the NSA would fold…

Well I hope this is not the case. I am against the NSA monitoring program. I think powerful commercial interests colluding to purposefully break the rule of law is a huge negative. Lets disconnect this behavior from the specific instance's moral outrage: If Exxon, BP, Chevron, Shell simultaneously came out and ignored all EPA restrictions would their CEOs all go to jail, doing enormous damage to the stock market? Thi…

If you're strictly judging by lawfulness, its a problem - but if you judge it by the public being exposed to harmful externalities during the normal operations of any of these businesses, and that preventing that is a positive, then this might be a solution.

The negative externalities are pollution and secret monitoring of customers. Polluting more doesn't reduce or eliminate either of those for the public, while informing the public of how it is being monitored does.

That being said, it would be a protest, and all useful protests against government are unlawful.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#53

Post by apalmer »

northwest wrote: post #38
apalmer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I hope this is not the case. I am against the NSA monitoring program. I think powerful commercial interests colluding to purposefully break the rule of law is a huge negative. Lets disconnect this behavior from the specific instance's moral outrage: If Exxon, BP, Chevron, Shell simultaneously came out and ignored all EPA restrictions would their CEOs all go to jail, doing enormous damage to the stock market? Thi…

> I think powerful commercial interests colluding to purposefully break the rule of law is a huge negative. It happens all the time, though, if you look at the financial, banking, insurance and oil industry - even without the slightest (moral) excuse. And nobody goes to jail, just some ridiculous fines to pay. This time, there is a very serious moral imperative.

Corporations have morals now? Just seems like a bad idea to root for, actually it sounds very similar to the argument that there is a serious moral imperative for the govt to ignore the 4th amendment to stop terrorism.

You are either for the rule of law or you arent.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#54

Post by jivatmanx »

rhizome wrote: post #29
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source?

Black Hat Conference, a week and a half ago: "Terrorists driven by a desire to 'create a caliphate' of sharia law in the middle east continued to plot attacks. 'Terrorists live among us,' he said" GP conflates these statements to imply that those among us want to create Sharia or whatever among us , but Alexander did say the words. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-keith-alexa...

Thanks Rhizome.

I'd like to add,

The Gulf States are already under Sharia, and have been since their founding almost a century ago. The Taliban copied Saudi Arabia, even using the exact same names for bureaucracies. [2] Relations with them were excellent before 9/11.

[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_the_Promotion_of_....

But, as Iraq showed, there's no need to understand elementary facts about their culture before you invade and engage in a massive social engineering project, or engage in an global, eternal, "war on terror".

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#55

Post by diminoten »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #9
diminoten wrote: post #3

Commandeering implies control, and the NSA does not have control. No one has "control" over the Internet. I also don't like this, "us vs. them" rhetoric that this story has turned some people towards, where the NSA are the unequivocal bad guys and we, the "little people", are the unequivocal good guys. That's a great way to get absolutely nothing done. The NSA is, despite everything we're being told by some people (B…

>> We can have our cake (terrorist monitoring) and eat it too (maintain individual privacy) Until the definition of a "terrorist" grows to include people who engage in activities previously considered harmless and private.

So we're ready to convict the government of thought-crimes?

Just because they can, doesn't mean they will. Gun owners could all go out and harm innocent people, but they generally don't, do they?

At least we don't convict them before they do.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#56

Post by pyrocat »

swombat wrote: post #25

If Google, Apple, Microsoft, Yahoo and Facebook simultaneously came out and published all statistics that the government is not allowing them to publish, and declared that they will continue to publish those as they come in and be entirely transparent about the tracking that the NSA asked of them, would their CEOs all go to jail, doing enormous damage to the stock market? I don't think so. I think the NSA would fold…

Or people would go "well, that sucks, not much I can do about it" and business continues as normal. But that's the cynic in me in talking.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#58

Post by pessimizer »

apalmer wrote: post #53
northwest wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think powerful commercial interests colluding to purposefully break the rule of law is a huge negative. It happens all the time, though, if you look at the financial, banking, insurance and oil industry - even without the slightest (moral) excuse. And nobody goes to jail, just some ridiculous fines to pay. This time, there is a very serious moral imperative.

Corporations have morals now? Just seems like a bad idea to root for, actually it sounds very similar to the argument that there is a serious moral imperative for the govt to ignore the 4th amendment to stop terrorism. You are either for the rule of law or you arent.

Or you are for the rule of some laws and not others? Just because you are pro-pot doesn't mean you are pro-child-molestation, right?

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#59

Post by diminoten »

ImprovedSilence wrote: post #41
diminoten wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know in the epistemological sense, but there's just no reason to believe such a thing to be true.

There is also no reason to believe it's not true, no?

Correct. Just like there is also no reason not to believe in ghosts or magic or bigfoot or unicorns.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#60

Post by alan_cx »

diminoten wrote: post #3

Commandeering implies control, and the NSA does not have control. No one has "control" over the Internet. I also don't like this, "us vs. them" rhetoric that this story has turned some people towards, where the NSA are the unequivocal bad guys and we, the "little people", are the unequivocal good guys. That's a great way to get absolutely nothing done. The NSA is, despite everything we're being told by some people (B…

Once you have information, you have control. We now have given them control, by behaving differently, because we now know they have our information.

Its the same thing with implied political blackmail. Politicians know the NSA has all their data, so best not annoy the NSA.

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