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Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

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Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#51

Post by enraged_camel »

jseliger wrote: post #37
junto wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is great and I would even good as far to say 'noble', but in a political system like the United States, your vote is wasted, because your vote is not proportionally represented in the House of Representatives. It means you face an ever-challenging battle against almost impossible odds in order to get your green or libertarian candidate into the House of Representatives.

your vote is wasted I beg to differ: if enough people vote for candidates who don't affiliate with the Republicans or Democrats, we'll see real change. Every vote counts. Hell, if Republicans and Democrats start seeing 10% of the votes going to greens or libertarians, they'll pay real close attention.

>>I beg to differ: if enough people vote for candidates who don't affiliate with the Republicans or Democrats, we'll see real change.

But that's the thing: this will never happen. The current establishment is so firmly entrenched, with so many rich and powerful groups vested in it, that it will find a way to sabotage any upstart.

If you genuinely believe that a third party coming to power in the US is simply a matter of it getting enough votes, I don't know what to tell you. I guess I'm envious: I lost that kind of hope a long time ago.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#52

Post by rayiner »

junto wrote: post #33

The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for? Neither Democrats nor Republicans will change this. Due to the way that the political system works, a third party isn't possible. In the UK we have a Conservative/Liberal coalition, where traditionally Liberals were strong privacy advocates, but now turn a blind eye to the massive Orwellian/Huxley-esque society g…

Neither party cares about the issue because the people don't care, and your conclusion is that the system is broken? As far as I can tell, the system is working fine. Polls of the public at large show mixed results, but I bet if you polled actual voters (skewing older) you'd find comfortable support for the status quo. Essentially, the privacy issues don't affect people's quality of life but people worry that terrorism will. Who are you to say that the system is broken because it reflects the priorities of the majority of voters, just because you disagree with those priorities?

If you had to personify the American polity, they'd be my mom, not you or me. She supports aggressive policing to keep drugs illegal (she'd probably vote to make alcohol illegal if that were on the ballot). She's pretty skeptical of Snowden, and would say "what do you have to hide?" but also thinks the government holds up her check deposits because she's got a foreign last name. She might argue with the details, but she supports the Department of Education, the Department of Defense, the CIA, the NSA, etc. She's a little skeptical of unions. She supported Hilary Clinton.

She's a bright woman. She works as an interior designer, but has a masters degree in chemistry from her home country.

My mom votes, in every election. I don't vote regularly, nor (statistically) do other people in my age group, but my mom does. I can't look at her, and at the status quo, and say: "the government does not represent the views of Americans."

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#53

Post by rayiner »

enraged_camel wrote: post #51
jseliger wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your vote is wasted I beg to differ: if enough people vote for candidates who don't affiliate with the Republicans or Democrats, we'll see real change. Every vote counts. Hell, if Republicans and Democrats start seeing 10% of the votes going to greens or libertarians, they'll pay real close attention.

>>I beg to differ: if enough people vote for candidates who don't affiliate with the Republicans or Democrats, we'll see real change. But that's the thing: this will never happen. The current establishment is so firmly entrenched, with so many rich and powerful groups vested in it, that it will find a way to sabotage any upstart. If you genuinely believe that a third party coming to power in the US is simply a matter…

Get the votes and see what happens before you claim that it wouldn't matter even if you got the votes.

The greens and libertarians are way off the mainstream on a whole host of issues. Can I vote in favor of privacy without also kicking abortion and civil rights and all those things back to the states, who made a mess of them? Can I vote for privacy without also voting for unions? Neither the greens nor the libertarians offer a credible alternative.

People broadly believe in a strong central government. People broadly believe in social security and Medicare and the department of education. People broadly want a strong defense and a powerful military. Get on board with all those things and then see if people are receptive to your views on individual liberties and privacy.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#54

Post by ahallock »

junto wrote: post #33

The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for? Neither Democrats nor Republicans will change this. Due to the way that the political system works, a third party isn't possible. In the UK we have a Conservative/Liberal coalition, where traditionally Liberals were strong privacy advocates, but now turn a blind eye to the massive Orwellian/Huxley-esque society g…

Don't vote. Spend time with your family, effect change locally, do something that makes a difference. I'm spreading peaceful parenting, the NAP, and philosophy. This is where real change will happen. Involving yourself in quasi-religious political rituals, getting caught up in a politician's silver-tongued promises and the destructive divisiveness of political ideologies is exactly what the oligarchy feeds off.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#55

Post by graedus »

rayiner wrote: post #52
junto wrote: post #33

The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for? Neither Democrats nor Republicans will change this. Due to the way that the political system works, a third party isn't possible. In the UK we have a Conservative/Liberal coalition, where traditionally Liberals were strong privacy advocates, but now turn a blind eye to the massive Orwellian/Huxley-esque society g…

Neither party cares about the issue because the people don't care, and your conclusion is that the system is broken? As far as I can tell, the system is working fine. Polls of the public at large show mixed results, but I bet if you polled actual voters (skewing older) you'd find comfortable support for the status quo. Essentially, the privacy issues don't affect people's quality of life but people worry that terrori…

> Neither party cares about the issue because the people don't care

And why don't the people care? Corporate-owned media has a huge amount of influence on what people care about. But in the never ending search for ever increasing profits that is built into their structure by law, they, like the major political parties are "just giving people what they want" too by chasing ratings in order to gain larger market share and increase advertising revenue. So both intertwined systems, the political system and the mainstream media, are working fine, right?

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#56

Post by chiph »

jseliger wrote: post #37
junto wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is great and I would even good as far to say 'noble', but in a political system like the United States, your vote is wasted, because your vote is not proportionally represented in the House of Representatives. It means you face an ever-challenging battle against almost impossible odds in order to get your green or libertarian candidate into the House of Representatives.

your vote is wasted I beg to differ: if enough people vote for candidates who don't affiliate with the Republicans or Democrats, we'll see real change. Every vote counts. Hell, if Republicans and Democrats start seeing 10% of the votes going to greens or libertarians, they'll pay real close attention.

Some of the LP-ish people recognized this dilution to be a problem, and started the Free State Project. Which is a migration to a state (they chose New Hampshire) in order to aggregate enough people to form a solid voting bloc.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#57

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #52
junto wrote: post #33

The question is then; in a two party system where both offer the blue pill, who the hell do you vote for? Neither Democrats nor Republicans will change this. Due to the way that the political system works, a third party isn't possible. In the UK we have a Conservative/Liberal coalition, where traditionally Liberals were strong privacy advocates, but now turn a blind eye to the massive Orwellian/Huxley-esque society g…

Neither party cares about the issue because the people don't care, and your conclusion is that the system is broken? As far as I can tell, the system is working fine. Polls of the public at large show mixed results, but I bet if you polled actual voters (skewing older) you'd find comfortable support for the status quo. Essentially, the privacy issues don't affect people's quality of life but people worry that terrori…

I'll go you one further. Obama could give a speech in the Rose Garden this week carefully explaining that NSA requires access to American communications, all of them, in order to defend the country against terrorist attacks, and that while privacy is "important", the expectation of perfect privacy in your cell phone and Internet communications isn't reasonable because it helps terrorist cells without providing much benefit.

I would recoil from such a speech, but the public probably would not.

The American public currently has a weak expectation of privacy in their electronic communications. But they make virtually no meaningful demand for that privacy. Thwarting terror attacks are a much higher priority to them. Want evidence of that? Well, the body-conscious, vain, generally out-of-shape American public routinely submits to electronic strip searches to get onto airplanes. You think they care if someone's screening their calls to catch Abu Shahid?

They would accept that argument. And with that acceptance, the expectations of privacy and the notion of what "reasonable" searches are would be, in short order, redefined --- those rights being explicitly predicated on contemporary mores by the Constitution.

When I look at it from this angle, it becomes apparent that while privacy is inconvenient to the USG, and something they feel they have to work around, it's not something they're intent on eliminating. Despite the rhetoric from the tech punditry, the USG has not stated that it's reasonable for them to surveil US citizens; their defense has instead been that they are not surveilling them. I too think that's a falsehood, but it's truth or falsity is not the only thing that matters about it.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#58

Post by pkinsky »

twoodfin wrote: post #6

It's interesting to compare the framing of this column with Schneier's commentary on the revelations of NSA surveillance in 2005: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/12/nsa_and_bushs_... It's full of "Bush did X", "Bush wanted Y". Now he says the NSA has "gone rogue". Huh. If Schneier is as unhappy with today's programs as he was with 2005's, then perhaps he should communicate a bit more clearly that today's o…

>If Schneier is as unhappy with today's programs as he was with 2005's, then perhaps he should communicate a bit more clearly that today's occupant of the Oval Office could end any of them with a phone call.

I want to believe this is true.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#59

Post by hansjorg »

Xylakant wrote: post #32
maxk42 wrote: post #2

Why on earth would you want people to trust the government? That's what got us into this mess.

You can't verify everything and everyone you're dealing with on a daily basis. You need to trust someone. If you're not trusting your government you need to trust the people watching the government. Or the people watching the people watching the government. Or... It's turtles all the way down from there. The government acts as a large trust provider in a lot of daily interactions. Police authority derives from the go…

Chain of trust? Maybe the USG is an organization that's too large to put your trust in.

Re: Restoring Trust in Government and the Internet

#60

Post by cinquemb »

graedus wrote: post #55
rayiner wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither party cares about the issue because the people don't care, and your conclusion is that the system is broken? As far as I can tell, the system is working fine. Polls of the public at large show mixed results, but I bet if you polled actual voters (skewing older) you'd find comfortable support for the status quo. Essentially, the privacy issues don't affect people's quality of life but people worry that terrori…

> Neither party cares about the issue because the people don't care And why don't the people care? Corporate-owned media has a huge amount of influence on what people care about. But in the never ending search for ever increasing profits that is built into their structure by law, they, like the major political parties are "just giving people what they want" too by chasing ratings in order to gain larger market share…

So long as the majority of people believe they have the means to butter their slice of bread while being entertained by the circus…

"Believe some say the neon signs by the loudspeakers repeating that everything is fine"

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