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Crossbar Resistive RAM stores a terabyte on a chip

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Re: Crossbar Resistive RAM stores a terabyte on a chip

#51
post #10

I remember memristers were supposed to do something like this. Anyone have an idea if this is related or unrelated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memristor

As I understand it, one of the (more interesting) characteristics of memristors is that they can do computation. They don't mention anything like that here, so I doubt it.

A memristor can be set up as a logic element that does computation, or as a memory storage element, just like a transistor (only persistent).

For some strange reason, the tech press took this to mean that a memristor array can be dynamically reconfigured to act as logic or ram in the same device. This is mostly false -- while yes, this kind of devices can be built (with transistors, they are typically called field-programmable gate arrays, or FPGAs), this requires you to be able to reconfigure not just the gates, but all the wiring that goes into them, meaning that a reconfigurable array has to be more than an order of magnitude larger, and a few times slower than a non-reconfigurable one.

You never want to use an FPGA for ram because you can get proper, non-reconfigurable ram for (way) less than tenth of the cost. You never want to use a fpga for logic if you can afford an asic, because you can be several times faster with hard-baked logic.

Memristors will mean nice FPGAs that retain state on power down, but they will not mean a revolution of dynamically reconfiguring devices.

Oh, and memristor logic is slower than transistor logic (you can do with less gates, but the gates switch slower) so the ability to use memristors for logic elements will initially mostly be a win in memory devices where the necessary logic to manage the device can be made out of the same structures the device is made of.

Re: Crossbar Resistive RAM stores a terabyte on a chip

#52

Does anyone know if there has been progress in volatile memory tech? I'm hoping for 1TB RAM chips with 10x faster access times than current RAM. It will enable PC gaming to deliver unmatched immersive experiences, among other applications.

Especially if this can be accessed as VRAM directly and just as fast by the GPU. Infinite-detail fractal-resolution destructable-animatable voxel terrains come to mind (not the Minecraft kind of "voxel", mind)..

Re: Crossbar Resistive RAM stores a terabyte on a chip

#53
post #50
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaming is limited by the CPU/GPU, and a bit by the bandwidth in between. Not by the RAM speed/latency.

Not strictly true. Most algorithm choices in gaming can make trade offs between CPU and RAM. If you increase available RAM, you can usually use algorithms that are more RAM hungry and less CPU hungry for large speed benefits.

If we're talking about game logic, I agree.

If we're talking about rendering beautiful complex worlds with post-processed special effects, I disagree.

Re: Crossbar Resistive RAM stores a terabyte on a chip

#54
post #48

Does anyone know if there has been progress in volatile memory tech? I'm hoping for 1TB RAM chips with 10x faster access times than current RAM. It will enable PC gaming to deliver unmatched immersive experiences, among other applications.

Gaming is limited by the CPU/GPU, and a bit by the bandwidth in between. Not by the RAM speed/latency.

Consider moving around very fast in a very big world. 1 TB RAM would help alot :)

Re: Crossbar Resistive RAM stores a terabyte on a chip

#55
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The price of a chip is more or less the die size. And they clearly show a smaller die than existing technology.

Since when is the price of a chip in any way related to the size of its die?

The per unit costs of a chip[1] are essentially constant per wafer. The smaller a chip is, the more of them each wafer will produce. Also, the smaller a chance there is that any given chip will be ruined by an imperfection. So then number of chips you get from each dollar of production cost is a bit less than linearly inversely proportional to the area of the chip. There are other factors too, though, and wafers from more advanced nodes will tend to be more expensive. However, the two examples being compared here were both from the 25nm nod.

[1] Which dominate with memory since production runs tend to be large and the regular patterns make for less design investment than, say, a CPU.

Re: Crossbar Resistive RAM stores a terabyte on a chip

#56
post #48

Does anyone know if there has been progress in volatile memory tech? I'm hoping for 1TB RAM chips with 10x faster access times than current RAM. It will enable PC gaming to deliver unmatched immersive experiences, among other applications.

Gaming is limited by the CPU/GPU, and a bit by the bandwidth in between. Not by the RAM speed/latency.

And a large part of what makes a better GPU is RAM bandwidth. If you're using integrated graphics there actually tends to be a quite large difference between using system RAM clocked at 1066 and RAM clocked at 1866. If you're using a discrete GPU card the RAM that makes a difference to your gaming performance is already soldered onto the card, but that might still see an improvement from faster memory technologies since the people who make those cards could use it.

Re: Crossbar Resistive RAM stores a terabyte on a chip

#57
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaming is limited by the CPU/GPU, and a bit by the bandwidth in between. Not by the RAM speed/latency.

And a large part of what makes a better GPU is RAM bandwidth. If you're using integrated graphics there actually tends to be a quite large difference between using system RAM clocked at 1066 and RAM clocked at 1866. If you're using a discrete GPU card the RAM that makes a difference to your gaming performance is already soldered onto the card, but that might still see an improvement from faster memory technologies si…

I think you are confusing RAM speed and the bus/PCIe bandwidth.

Re: Crossbar Resistive RAM stores a terabyte on a chip

#58
post #53
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not strictly true. Most algorithm choices in gaming can make trade offs between CPU and RAM. If you increase available RAM, you can usually use algorithms that are more RAM hungry and less CPU hungry for large speed benefits.

If we're talking about game logic, I agree. If we're talking about rendering beautiful complex worlds with post-processed special effects, I disagree.

I'm a graphics programmer.

The only reason to prefer the GPU is because it confers an advantage over the traditional CPU+RAM combination. There's nothing inherently special about a modern GPU. The GPU is a sequence of actions and abilities encoded into hardware, e.g. the ability to automatically perform various kinds of texture filtering transparently to the game developer.

Since the GPU is hardware, and since hardware is less flexible than software, a graphics programmer would always prefer a software-based pipeline to a hardware-based one. The reason hardware pipelines are preferred is strictly because their advantages outweigh their disadvantages. Typically, using a GPU enables graphics programmers to create renderers which are 10-100x more efficient than software-based renderers, so the added flexibility of a software rasterizer tends to be forgotten in the face of massive efficiency enabled by the GPU.

The GPU primarily became popular because (a) it offloaded part of the computation from the CPU to dedicated hardware, freeing up the CPU for other tasks like game logic, AI, and more recently physics computations (though nVidia is trying hard to convince developers that hardware-accelerated physics is a viable concept), (b) GPUs increased the amount of available memory, and (c) GPUs dramatically increased the throughput (memory operations per second) of graphics memory.

Memory latency plays a key role in many modern graphics algorithms, such as voxel-based renderers. It's often the case that an algorithm needs to repeatedly cast rays against a voxel structure until hitting some kind of geometry. Therefore, within an individual pixel of the screen to be rendered, this type of algorithm can be hard to parallelize because typically the raycasting can't be broken up into parallelizable steps. It typically looks like, "While not hit: traceAlongRay();" for each pixel, each frame. I.e. this algorithm can only trace one section of the ray at a time before tracing the next.

That raycasting algorithm is memory-latency-bound because it completes only when it finishes looking up enough memory locations that it detects the ray has intersected some 3D geometry. In other words, by reducing memory latency by 2x, and assuming memory bandwidth is sufficient, then this algorithm will complete twice as fast. This means instead of 24 frames per second, you might get 48 frames per second.

So, all that said, if it becomes common to have 1TB of regular RAM with the latency and bandwidth traditionally offered by GPUs, along with a surplus of available CPU cores to offload computations to, then software renderers will once again become preferable to GPU renderers. A software pipeline will always be more flexible and easier to maintain than a hardware pipeline, simply because the featureset of the software pipeline isn't restricted to the capabilities of the videocard hardware it's executing on. It's also easier to debug and maintain.

All of that means that it'll be easier for art pipelines to produce more complex, more immersive visual experiences than at present. But replacing the traditional GPU-based renderer with a CPU-based software renderer will only be practical if there's a major advance of RAM technology in the future, because current RAM tech can't match the memory bandwidth / latency of a modern GPU. Hence, any major developments in the area of volatile memory tech will be extremely interesting to graphics programmers.

Re: Crossbar Resistive RAM stores a terabyte on a chip

#59
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a large part of what makes a better GPU is RAM bandwidth. If you're using integrated graphics there actually tends to be a quite large difference between using system RAM clocked at 1066 and RAM clocked at 1866. If you're using a discrete GPU card the RAM that makes a difference to your gaming performance is already soldered onto the card, but that might still see an improvement from faster memory technologies si…

I think you are confusing RAM speed and the bus/PCIe bandwidth.

If you're using integrated graphics there isn't any PCI bus involved. Even when graphics was off-die it was on the Southbridge.

And the bandwidth between the GPU and the GDDR on the graphics card doesn't have anything to do with the PCI bus either, except to a small extent when synchronizing with the CPU or initially loading textures or whatever.

Re: Crossbar Resistive RAM stores a terabyte on a chip

#60
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a large part of what makes a better GPU is RAM bandwidth. If you're using integrated graphics there actually tends to be a quite large difference between using system RAM clocked at 1066 and RAM clocked at 1866. If you're using a discrete GPU card the RAM that makes a difference to your gaming performance is already soldered onto the card, but that might still see an improvement from faster memory technologies si…

I think you are confusing RAM speed and the bus/PCIe bandwidth.

Apart from the cutting-edge APUs (like AMD Kaveri implementing hUMA), the memory of integrated GPUs and previous generation APUs was separate and copying chunks of it in between happened via the bus.

Plus since we're talking about cutting-edge gaming, integrated graphics is irrelevant (and so are APUs).

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