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Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

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Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#51
post #8
post #3

Why is it so obvious to the internet and no one else that thorium is the future of power? What do they (the experts) know that we don't?

Because Thorium isn't the answer. What I don't get, that people who care about technology and about freedom prefer a centralised technology like fission power over a decentralised technology like solar or wind, in combination with electricity storage. So far nobody has developed a reactor design which is really better or cleaner than what it is currently available. No "new" design could deliver what it has promised.…

If we're talking about powering your home, sure, wind and solar are a great answer, combined with improvements in insulation and appliance efficiency.

But if we are talking about advanced science and technology, we need ever-increasing power density. You're not going to power the Large Hadron Collider with wind and solar--and certainly not its successor. You're not going to power fusion research with wind and solar. You're not going to power advanced transportation or manufacturing with wind and solar.

No battery technology in the world can compete with the power density that is possible with nuclear energy. And if it could, it would be just as dangerous as nuclear.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#52
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I do not like Nathan Myhrvold." I dislike what Nathan Myhrvold has done with IV, the business model is despicable, and essential hacks major errors/bugs in the legal system to extrapolate money from productive members of society, and creators. The entire approach is a scam. But, it's important to separate the bad that people do, from the good. Bill Gates and Microsoft (criminally) leveraged a monopoly to drive a goo…

I dislike Nathan Myhrvold as a whole, and that's what I think that guy meant too: with the information we have, we can only hate Myhrvold. And I, for one, do not excuse Bill Gates for all the bad he's done to the world of software, among others, just because of his charity. But that's my personal opinion.

[deleted]

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you know him? I didn't know Adolf Hitler, but I know enough of him to know that he wasn't a nice person. Patent trolling is a legal form of extortion. It is evil. Myhrvold is an evil man.

Godwin's Law strikes again.

It never fails, a guy mentioning Godwin's Law. It has almost become like a law...

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#54
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Thorium isn't the answer. What I don't get, that people who care about technology and about freedom prefer a centralised technology like fission power over a decentralised technology like solar or wind, in combination with electricity storage. So far nobody has developed a reactor design which is really better or cleaner than what it is currently available. No "new" design could deliver what it has promised.…

Wind and solar aren't the answer either, or you wouldn't be having this discussion because it would already have been deployed. The economics of all intermittent power sources make it unfeasible; Installing the necessary transmission lines to all those decentralized sites, the energy lost during transmission to and from storage, the costs of storing that much power, and the other inefficiencies of generating the powe…

Actually, decentralised power sources would make high voltage lines obsolet because you can build them where you need the electricity. Centralised systems need high voltage lines around the country.

Energy density is not a good measurement I think. In theory the sun sends more energy per day than we might ever need but we can only make use of parts of that. This is improving but still, just a tiny part of it. The same with Thorium or Uranium or even fossil fuels. Usually the efficiency of those power plants is well below 50%, nuclear power below 40%, coal even less, especially those "clean coal" CSS plants.

The problem with molten salt reactor will be the same with fast breeders, where the liquid sodium was/is causing corrosion and problem when mixing with water. IIRC most accidents in FBRs were sodium related. And even if MSRs are cheaper in one way than current designs, it doesn't say they are not more expensive in other ways.

But currently none of those reactor designs is ready for commercial use. None! With the time you need to get such a design up and running, you can also deploy renewable energy. Much more reliable and stable.

In 2012 about 7.5 GW of renewable energy were deployed in Germany. Even if you calculate that not all of that is available around the clock, you would have build more than 2 EPRs with 1.6 GW electrical power to get the same amount of energy, which you just can't do within one year.

Maybe MSR solve a lot of problems with nuclear energy but it won't come free, it won't come w/o other problems. All forms of energy have drawbacks. Photovoltaik uses rare earth, wind has huge towers which are not really popular with locals, water has a huge impact on rivers and the environment. Biomass has the problem with using food for energy, and usage of land. I could continue the entire night.

The important question is a different one, do you want to solve the energy problem or just ask the next generation to solve it for you?

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#55

Nathan Myhrvold He did this cool TED talk about shooting mosquitos out of the air with lasers salvaged from commodity electronics. Since that was years ago, it appears that it is doesn't work in the real world. Par for the course with TED. A prominent malaria expert tore into him for exploiting a real crisis that kills millions to make his company actually does something good for the world. Going all hi-tech hero whe…

Hey but now when someone does get the bugLaser working, he can be there with prior art AND a patent to collect upon.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#56
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I do not like Nathan Myhrvold." I dislike what Nathan Myhrvold has done with IV, the business model is despicable, and essential hacks major errors/bugs in the legal system to extrapolate money from productive members of society, and creators. The entire approach is a scam. But, it's important to separate the bad that people do, from the good. Bill Gates and Microsoft (criminally) leveraged a monopoly to drive a goo…

I dislike Nathan Myhrvold as a whole, and that's what I think that guy meant too: with the information we have, we can only hate Myhrvold. And I, for one, do not excuse Bill Gates for all the bad he's done to the world of software, among others, just because of his charity. But that's my personal opinion.

For all the bad he's done to the world of software? I appreciate that Microsoft illegally bundled a browser with their OS, driving their biggest competitor from the market, and subsequently stalling browser innovation for ~5 years, but to think that Gates was a net negative for the world of software is a bit heavy-handed.

Gates' originally mission was a personal computer in every home and on every desk. I don't mean to detract from Apple, or IBM or any other company, but Microsoft accomplished that goal, in a remarkably short period of time.

And even if you believe that Microsoft did somehow damage the world of software (which I dispute), his charitable work has saved millions of lives, and will continue to do so. I understand that the ends don't justify the means, but whatever ill will you feel towards him for not being a champion of free software can't possibly overwhelm his positive contributions to humanity, even if they don't live in this country.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#57
post #2

I want a thorium-powered car. http://www.geekosystem.com/thorium-powered-car/

The "thorium-powered-cars" were discussed previously. They are based in a totally different "unproved" technology. The main point about "thorium-powered-cars":

* It's not a nuclear reactor, it doesn't produce fission.

* It says that the thorium has a lot of potential energy, but it's not clear how to extract it. (A similar weight of potatoes has the same energy and at least it's easy to extract a part of it.)

* It mixes lasers and radioactive material. A lot of buzzwords but the explanation of the details is unintelligible.

I gave more details and direct quotes for the project in a previous comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2879955

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#58
post #19
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know him? Honesty I don't have a huge amount of information about his other dealings, but I think there is a genuine case for what he is trying to do with IV, even if you disagree with with methods. With me and my company, he has been a man of tremendous character and generosity. I daresay you and most others are prejudging the situation. In error. Keep in mind, I am no fan of the patent system either. http://…

He may be a nice enough guy, but how can you possibly justify what he does with IV? I doubt he's an evil person, but what he does with patents is very plainly evil.

In his own words:

"The patent system exists to give economic incentive to create inventions -- not products. After all, profit is the incentive to create and sell products. In order to have a level playing field, inventors must have a full set of rights, regardless of whether they are big or little, or whether they make products or just invent. Those rights are what give them the incentive to work long and hard on new ideas that may not work. A lot of big innovative companies agree with this -- companies like DuPont, GE, Qualcomm and 3M, as well as the pharmaceutical and biotech industry, have filed amicus briefs in support of MercExchange and equal rights for all inventors."

"Perhaps the biggest myth is the danger "patent trolls" -- people who supposedly manipulate the patent system in a shady way. It does happen, but apart from some anecdotes, no evidence has been offered that patent trolls are a major problem. Court records show that only 2% of all patent lawsuits are due to plaintiffs that have no ongoing product business. Of that 2%, the vast majority are perfectly legitimate companies or universities. A tiny minority of patent suits are due to bad actors, but it's hardly a crisis. While I was at Microsoft, we encountered a couple of patent manipulators, but frankly we won those cases; at worst they were a nuisance."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114368437650611883.html

I think that on the balance IV in actual operation strives to create a good working environment for inventors and invention. I think that the invention session s that they holds and the work they do to commercialize is in fact a significant, genuine positive.

I think they are actually trying to do good, and are a net plus within the existing system.

That said, I think the existing system has long outlived its usefulness. I think, today, it is a net negative. The biggest problems: overhead, unclear rights, patents that should never have been granted, the assumption of validity, thickets, and injunction as the primary right. That, and the fact that it is difficult to willingly give one's inventions to the public.

But I have come around on much. In previous eras, I gave the honor to those who could create products and companies around their inventions. Ideas were cheap, I would say.

In fact, it takes immense determination to legitimately reduce an idea to practice -- the intended goal of a disclosure in the patent system. Through immense effort I have learned the ropes, learning to found companies and manage them, raise money, find markets, plan, recruit and manage commercialization and manufacturing. I might only get 10 - 20% of my time to invent. It is absurd that we ask all of our inventors to do this simply to make a buck. For every one of me there would be dozens who either couldn't, or shouldn't have to.

In private discussions with Nathan, he is well aware -- more than I -- of the limitations in the patent system. Nonetheless, within that system, he is trying to do a good thing. I do not call this evil.

My own company has essentially had its strategy forced upon us. We have applied for nearly 80 patents, at great expense of time and money, to defend ourselves from other companies. We had a great many ideas. Eventually, several multi-billion dollar organizations became interested in a few ideas we had patented. Each would be worth a huge amount to their organization if the product was successful. Should we not license the patent because the patent system is "evil?" Occasionally the system actually fulfills its stated purpose.

Intellectual ventures buys intellectual property, often directly from inventors. It sells particular chunks to interested buyers. In one, highly controversial "peacekeeping" tactic, IV buys and assembles bundles of packets, to destory packet thickets and get "live ammo" out of the play. They then license the bundles to large organizations, like Microsoft, Cisco, Apple. The big guys; selling them the closest form of freedom to operate that exists in todays world.

Is this evil? I think not. At the end of the day, through IV's actions, inventors get checks in the mail, large corporations get more freedom to operate, lawsuits that might have existed are defused, and some of the ideas that make the giant tech megacorps so profitable are actually paid for, to some extent, to their originators and appraisers. That is how the system is supposed to work.

It might be that the system has so much collateral damage that all these activities are a net negative. But let us not begrudge IV their intent. If actors are legally trying to do good within a flawed system, and in the process doing more harm than good, it is a flaw of the system more than the actor.

I basically think they've taken the flak for being a "patent troll" simply because they were a prominent target. They are scapegoating, without good judgement.

In fact, I believe IV is, at worst, misguided and large enough that missteps cause devastation out of line snd proportion to their intent, and at best, genuinely working to usher in a new age of private invention.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#59
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling Myhrvold 'evil' and putting himself in the same context as Hitler is absurd. One is a businessman whose tactics you disapprove of and consider to be unethical, the other instigated the murder of millions of people, over and above the casualties of the numerous wars that he started.

cabalamat didn't put Myhrvold in the same context as Hitler, you did. He made two distinct statements that you somehow connected. 1) I have not met Hitler but I know him to have been not a nice man 2) I believe Patent Trolling to be evil and therefore those that perpetrate it to also be evil. Personally I cannot disagree with either statement. Excusing any evil practice as 'a businessman whose tactics you disapprove…

cabalamat didn't put Myhrvold in the same context as Hitler

What? That's exactly what he did.

Re: Bill Gates’ nuclear company explores molten salt reactors, thorium

#60
post #21
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know him? Honesty I don't have a huge amount of information about his other dealings, but I think there is a genuine case for what he is trying to do with IV, even if you disagree with with methods. With me and my company, he has been a man of tremendous character and generosity. I daresay you and most others are prejudging the situation. In error. Keep in mind, I am no fan of the patent system either. http://…

"Do you know him?" How does that matter? Maybe the issue the commenter is raising is not personal. Maybe it has nothing to do with personalities or generosity. Maybe he is raising the issue of IV's business model: further exploiting a broken system. Some might opine that such exploitation is not a good thing, and we should not condone it let alone support it. We can all make solid returns from patent trolling with ve…

As for whether knowing him matters, the question is not whether you know him personally, but whether you actually understand what he does or is trying to do. Honestly I think most people who pay judgement do not, but it is too painful to see otherwise sane members of the HN community scapegoating someone without knowledge.

TerraPower is one of the most courageous and exciting approaches in technology today. It is absurd to think it is being done for PR purposes.

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See my reply to Staunch as how I see it. One response to your phrase:

"Tax collector on innovation."

I think the concept at issue here is whether or not invention -- the creation of an idea and how to actual execute it -- is worth anything versus innovation -- brining a new concept to market.

Having been involved in both, it does seem invention is massively short changed versus innovation.

I disagree somewhat with the methods.

But the complete view of it would be that IV is trying to collect taxes from rulers, innovators, and all out copiers, and pay the inventors.

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They actually do pay inventors.

Possibly too much. Word on the street is that they are not profitable. Or possibly the overhead is too high. Or perhaps they are simply not as aggressive as people might imagine.

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