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How I Earned A Lot More on Projects by Changing My Pricing Strategy

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Re: How I Earned A Lot More on Projects by Changing My Pricing Strategy

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with fixed price work is you create a conflict of interests from the start. It's in your interest to do as little as possible for the price and it's in your customers interest to get as much as possible for the price. That and all the issues of requirements gathering up front.

Isn't it also true that hourly or daily billing creates a conflict of interests from the start, because it's in the customer's interests for you to finish as fast as possible and in your interests to finish as slowly as possible?

Yes, but those are smaller than the converse, where the conversation is about whether something ambiguous/new is in or out of scope (strictly adversarial discussion), rather than whether such ambiguous items are worth it or not to the client (simply a resource allocation discussion).

Re: How I Earned A Lot More on Projects by Changing My Pricing Strategy

#52
post #36
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is hour Also, since an hourly rate is standard and job postings say how much they pay by the hour, isn't it common to be rejected when you ask for a daily/weekly rate?

Thomas has explained this in more detail, but: + The minimum billing increment switching to 8x your 40x your previous increment will, by itself, scare away the worst pathological clients in the pool. (If you have a $50 hourly rate, some clients might naively assume that they can get meaningful software development done in 3 hours. Where's my website? I've paid for three whole hours . What do you mean you're still set…

Quite. Leads to a ridiculous micro-management frame!

Re: How I Earned A Lot More on Projects by Changing My Pricing Strategy

#54

Unfortunately I just got hit by 2 projects in a row that passed 3x overage. I quoted 2 weeks to finish, but they both ended up taking over 6. I'm probably not even making minimum wage for the last couple of months. So if you are going to quote by the job, be sure to put in limits in case it goes over your time budget so you can renegotiate. Also I would not recommend having a "friend rate". Your workload just goes up…

Unfortunately I just got hit by 2 projects in a row that passed 3x overage. I quoted 2 weeks to finish, but they both ended up taking over 6. I'm probably not even making minimum wage for the last couple of months.

Those are fixed-bid projects, not time & materials with time increments of days or weeks.

But the real reason I am commenting is to point out that your results - 3x overage - are exactly the rule of thumb that gets cited for fix-bid: Take your expected level of effort and triple it.

Re: How I Earned A Lot More on Projects by Changing My Pricing Strategy

#55
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of schmucks, here's one that got me to give up on consulting from couple years ago: http://cliffkaplanfraud.com/

Sorry for being a bit tangential, but I'm always astonished how people are still using checks for business. Especially in the US, where it seems standard industry practice of assholes to bounce checks. (I read about France still being in love with checks as well, although they have basically your standing with banks depend on you handling checks well. So even if they're still using a horribly outdated method of payme…

Part of the problem with modern financial systems is that as a business, you almost never actually have the money you think you have, guaranteed, just because it's in your bank account. The number of ways that different kinds of transaction can be reversed -- in a compulsory way, by the other party, and possibly with them getting the benefit of the doubt in any dispute process -- is crazy. And that's just the technical measures, before you get into payment services that demand authority to instruct your bank as a business practice and obviously whatever legal remedies a court might order if you litigate a dispute.

I wonder how much more efficient the world would be if we had practical small claims systems in courts that were respected across borders, so there was an official and genuinely independent way to resolve disputes over small amounts of money, and then we did away with chargebacks, reversible transactions (other than in cases of genuine error), etc. While I'm dreaming, we could fix the crazy way that many of these payments are authorised, too. If bad people couldn't sneakily take your money so easily in the first place, you wouldn't need so many protections to get it back, which could then be abused against good people if the bad person is the customer.

Re: How I Earned A Lot More on Projects by Changing My Pricing Strategy

#56
post #37

Smart customers have their own method of pricing to compete with the value-based pricing suggested in the post. It's called market-based pricing. Even if my programming work will make the client $100,000, if the client is convinced he can get that programming work done for $5,000, he will pick that over my $20,000 quote. I've read these several posts along these lines. The one huge assumption they make is that you ha…

"The one huge assumption they make is that you have good clients who aren't on a budget and won't go shopping. Those clients are much harder to find as a freelancer." Agree. And it's not even so much budget as "not a schmuck" (sorry not a better way to put that). When I saw this, I laughed: "As an example, if I was proposing to build a website capable of creating an additional $100,000 of profit annually, I would ask…

When I saw this, I laughed:

"As an example, if I was proposing to build a website capable of creating an additional $100,000 of profit annually, I would ask the client to make an investment of $40,000 in their website."

Exactly. Leaving aside the sleight of hand of comparing hypothetical/perceived benefit with actual cost, what you've really got here is a consultant offering you $60,000 of benefit this year. If another consultant can do the same job but only charge you $20,000, then they have offered you $80,000 of benefit this year. Assuming both are being honest about the expected benefit and can do work of a similar quality within their quoted budgets, so one really is just pricing higher arbitrarily, who are you going to choose?

Value-based pricing is interesting to discuss, and it's certainly a more rational and business-like way of handling engagements than billing your time out hourly in something not so far from an employment relationship. However, the value added is benefit minus cost. Unless you really are the only game in town, you can't just raise your rates until they are 99% of the value you claim to generate for your client and argue that it's still a good deal for them because they're 1% better off if they use you than if they hadn't. That ignores the third option of using someone else.

That third option is a possibility for almost every client of almost every consultant. If you as a consultant have the sales and marketing skills to find clients who will believe that they don't have that option and convince them that you really are the only sensible choice and they should pay your inflated rates accordingly, then good for you. However, please don't pretend that winning jobs at those inflated rates has anything to do with some natural value proposition rather than simply being better at sales and marketing.

Re: How I Earned A Lot More on Projects by Changing My Pricing Strategy

#57
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The one huge assumption they make is that you have good clients who aren't on a budget and won't go shopping. Those clients are much harder to find as a freelancer." Agree. And it's not even so much budget as "not a schmuck" (sorry not a better way to put that). When I saw this, I laughed: "As an example, if I was proposing to build a website capable of creating an additional $100,000 of profit annually, I would ask…

When I saw this, I laughed: "As an example, if I was proposing to build a website capable of creating an additional $100,000 of profit annually, I would ask the client to make an investment of $40,000 in their website." Exactly. Leaving aside the sleight of hand of comparing hypothetical/perceived benefit with actual cost, what you've really got here is a consultant offering you $60,000 of benefit this year. If anoth…

Exactly. The only way I can see this working with a non-naive person is if its accurately measurable, and if you don't achieve the 100k, you don't pay the 40k. THEN, I can see it working. If that isn't how it works, then I can't understand how you think you are righteous in selling these services at a much higher place - put your money where your mouth is.

Re: How I Earned A Lot More on Projects by Changing My Pricing Strategy

#59
post #58

Whenever I see a page selling anything and it won't tell me the price and I can't find it in a click, I move on. My time is valuable, and someone who plays games to waste it is not someone from whom I want to buy anything.

Are you in the market for $40,000 websites?

Additionally, this is not about playing games -- it's about finding what is valuable to a client and delivering it.

Re: How I Earned A Lot More on Projects by Changing My Pricing Strategy

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I saw this, I laughed: "As an example, if I was proposing to build a website capable of creating an additional $100,000 of profit annually, I would ask the client to make an investment of $40,000 in their website." Exactly. Leaving aside the sleight of hand of comparing hypothetical/perceived benefit with actual cost, what you've really got here is a consultant offering you $60,000 of benefit this year. If anoth…

Exactly. The only way I can see this working with a non-naive person is if its accurately measurable, and if you don't achieve the 100k, you don't pay the 40k. THEN, I can see it working. If that isn't how it works, then I can't understand how you think you are righteous in selling these services at a much higher place - put your money where your mouth is.

FWIW, I don't think righteousness is really the issue here. All consultancy is ultimately based on selling valuable information and/or judgement that the client doesn't have but the consultant does, so in a sense it's always based on the consultant charging money because of the client's ignorance. It's hard to find any objective standard for reasonable pricing other than "what the market is willing to pay".

Maybe it becomes more ethically dubious when the consultant is taking advantage not of the client's ignorance in the field where they're paying for advice but of their ignorance of the consulting market itself in that field. Even then, it's the natural position that a new customer doesn't know the sellers' market, and a large chunk of sales and marketing is based on trying to convince uncertain prospective customers to buy from you and not someone else, so again it's hard to find any objective standard for what is fair and what is unfairly taking advantage. (This is a major argument for licensing practitioners in industries where bad advice can be particularly damaging, such as healthcare, law and accountancy.)

One thing that is very clear is that the value-based pricing approach only works if you can find some credible and quantifiable means to demonstrate the value you might offer to a client. If you work in a field like conversion optimisation, that's easy enough. If you (or your consultancy including colleagues/subs) are building an entire system that will have concrete benefits for the business, you can probably do it too. If you build software in general, maybe as part of a wider team or making incremental functional changes to an existing system as many freelancers/contractors do, then it's not the same situation.

This is why it sometimes irritates me when a handful of HN celebrities post repeatedly about raising rates and changing the basis for charging as if everyone can do it, even in response to someone who would obviously have to fundamentally change the kind of work they do before the advice would make sense for them. It sets false expectations, and potentially damages the careers of people who go out to customers/clients with unrealistic expectations and wind up missing out on reasonably profitable work. Worse, it could tarnish their reputation and leave unhappy clients behind, because even though they did what they said they'd do, the client later discovered they'd paid well over the odds and felt ripped off. It's never happened to me, because I choose not to work that way, but I've seen it happen to others and the results are never pretty.

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