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Verbal abuse on LKML

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Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#51

Post by bru »

nawitus wrote: post #35

She could've presented her critique without turning it into a gender issue: >I won't be the nice girl anymore.

I fail to see how she turned it into a gender issue with those words. She's a woman and she's entitled to the use of the correct pronoun. Do you wish she had written "I won't be the nice guy anymore"? That would have sounded ridiculous.

Please note that when she points out Linus' behaviour, it is not because she got flamed. She did not get yelled at. The whole issue has nothing to do with her sex.

You are trying to turn it into a gender issue, which it is not - regardless of Sarah's stances on that matter.

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#52

Post by chriscool »

kingkilr wrote: post #32
icebraining wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus' reply: Because if you want me to "act professional", I can tell you that I'm not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearign a bathrobe. The same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what "acting professionally" results in: people resort…

Everyone should wear a tie from time to time, it's fun! In all seriousness, this line of reasoning is pretty fallacious, Linus has somehow jumped from "not actively abusing anyone" to the conclusion that this inevitably leads to backstabbing and passive aggressiveness. He provides no evidence to support this claim, and I think many of us who work in reasonable office environments know that this is just simply not the…

Linus just says that he doesn't want to "act professional". Remember that he may still feel that it is a hobby for him to work on Linux. He started it in his spare time and, even if he is technically payed to work on it by the Linux Foundation, he has the right to do whatever he wants with this project, including still considering it is a hobby. Would you like someone to tell you how you should speek with your friends outside work? By the way, people sending him patches are not his coworkers, except perhaps Greg KH. He can see them as friends or strangers or even as business people wanting to sell him stuff. You cannot compare his situation with the situation of people who "work in reasonable office environments".

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#53

Post by _pmf_ »

miles wrote: post #39

Wow - on a rare visit to Slashdot, stumbled across this incredibly insightful comment by Charliemopps[1]: Ironically his argument about fake politeness is EXACTLY what he's getting. People are pretending that his horrible behavior is acceptable just because they don't want to get on his bad side. Acting professionally is not about politeness, it's about not muddying up the conversation with information that's not use…

> People are pretending that his horrible behavior is acceptable just because they don't want to get on his bad side.

I think this is wrong. This argument does not make sense for people who are not in any way directly involved with kernel contributions, but have nevertheless formed an opinion about Linus. I, personally, find his antics to be quite entertaining and refreshing. Reacting strongly to small technical detail is something that should be encouraged, not banished.

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#54

Post by markdown »

miles wrote: post #39

Wow - on a rare visit to Slashdot, stumbled across this incredibly insightful comment by Charliemopps[1]: Ironically his argument about fake politeness is EXACTLY what he's getting. People are pretending that his horrible behavior is acceptable just because they don't want to get on his bad side. Acting professionally is not about politeness, it's about not muddying up the conversation with information that's not use…

> People are pretending that his horrible behavior is acceptable just because they don't want to get on his bad side.

Or maybe they're just willing to accept the occasional insult from a guy they respect, admire, and who has done so much good for them. Kinda like how people forgive Bill Clinton for lying to them about his private shenanigans because he was a damn good president overall.

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#55

Post by kingkilr »

chriscool wrote: post #52
kingkilr wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone should wear a tie from time to time, it's fun! In all seriousness, this line of reasoning is pretty fallacious, Linus has somehow jumped from "not actively abusing anyone" to the conclusion that this inevitably leads to backstabbing and passive aggressiveness. He provides no evidence to support this claim, and I think many of us who work in reasonable office environments know that this is just simply not the…

Linus just says that he doesn't want to "act professional". Remember that he may still feel that it is a hobby for him to work on Linux. He started it in his spare time and, even if he is technically payed to work on it by the Linux Foundation, he has the right to do whatever he wants with this project, including still considering it is a hobby. Would you like someone to tell you how you should speek with your friend…

Until my current job almost all my open source work was in my volunteer free time as well. Whether his fellow contributors are coworkers, friends, or just strangers who happen to know how to program, the abuse isn't acceptable.

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#56

Post by Ygg2 »

davidw wrote: post #31
beachstartup wrote: post #6

this issue comes up every couple of years - these guys write linux, you can't make them do anything. they are untouchable and will do/say whatever the hell they want. linus especially - is a grown ass man and does this in person too, as is his prerogative. anyone see his github speech? he stands up in front of 300 people and calls them all idiots.

Do we have to beat you over the head with the "all progress depends on the unreasonable man." (or woman, in this case) quote?

Do note, it said unreasonable, not douche bag (man or woman).

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#58

Post by PavlovsCat »

DannyBee wrote: post #14
ddalex_ro wrote: post #4

Wtf, now we fight the way Linus is dictating things around ? Next, we'll be down to having respect for colleagues and maintain civility in all cases.

In some ways, Linus is not wrong. Fake civility and fake respect do not usually help anyone. This does not mean you run around screaming at people, usually, that gets you fired. However, these folks have formed their own community, and set the rules of conduct for it. If she wants to try to change those, great. But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ larg…

In some ways, Linus is not wrong. Fake civility and fake respect do not usually help anyone.

That's still a strawman, and not a valid response to anything she actually said.

But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ large to come down on them. (At least from where I sit, she is trying to do the latter, rather than the former. Maybe i'm misreading it though)

Have you read the actual mailing list discussion? She's rather patient, polite and constructive, while Linus spouts mostly BS like the above strawman. So how do you come up with that "agenda" of hers?

If you can't talk with some people, the next best thing is to find people with brains to talk about those people. There is nothing wrong with that, it should be encouraged.

Essentially, she wants the community to change not because the community wants to, but because everyone else outside the community wants them to.

This seems, without thinking very hard, quite wrong.

Then try thinking, it could go a little something like this: maybe, just maybe, she's the first mentally grown up person to stroll deep enough into that mailing list to ever raise the point. This is not wrong, just awkward, and "that's just the way I am" is a response fit for a 5 year old.

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#59

Post by ohwp »

It's all about "constructive criticism".

We all know Linus is right most of the time. But I think his abusive tone isn't constructive and won't motivate people to do a better job.

Edit:

"Adopting the most effective style of criticism should be tempered by the cultural context, the recipient's personality, and nature of the relationship between provider and recipient."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_criticism

Re: Verbal abuse on LKML

#60

Post by mercurial »

davidw wrote: post #45
mercurial wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. There is a place for "I would prefer that XYZ". It often means "you have a convention slightly different than mine, I'd rather you change your code to fit my style but that's not a big issue". However, you can be very explicit by saying "It's a bad idea to do XYZ and here is why, this is what I suggest instead". Bonus point if your code review system can flag a comment as "Defect" to make it more explicit…

I can understand not always having time to explain why something is a bad idea when you're working on very high profile code. I think Rusty's right: you can be unequivocally harsh with the code, but not swear at or call people morons.

Even if you don't have time to explain, "This is a bad/dangerous idea" is enough to get the point across, without resorting to swear words (on the other hand "I would prefer that" is clearly not much of an incentive to change things) or being rude ("or go away" is definitely rude in my book).
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