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The 19-year-old jailed for the crime of sarcasm

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Re: The 19-year-old jailed for the crime of sarcasm

#51

Post by zaroth »

koalakid wrote: post #47

I'm going to be downvoted into oblivion for this comment, then my account will be hellbanned by the mods, but whatever: this guy's posting was jarringly violent and disturbing. I believe most people would never fathom ideas so evil, and yet this guy broadcasted it in the most public space in the known universe - FACEBOOK. The guy needs correction, badly .

Jarringly violent and disturbing -- sort of like a certain (or any?) Quentin Tarantino movie that grossed over $100m world wide?

Most people would never fathom ideas so evil? Obviously false and useless hyperbole. Which is why you would deserve the downvotes.

What you fail to grasp is the entire concept of protecting speech, why it's so essential to a functioning democracy, and why your personal opinion of a paragraph of text being 'violent' or 'disturbing' is completely irrelevant.

We're talking about locking up a young man behind bars. Taking away his liberty, possibly taking away his ability to earn a living. It's not a stretch to say that his life is on the line, because of how a paragraph of text made you feel.

All this is further compounded by the highly political decision about what type of speech may be 'too violent' or 'too disturbing' to be legal. I can't fathom how an informed American can honestly argue that we should criminalize the act of typing a few words on your keyboard, and posting them on Facebook, when those words don't constitute an intentional and imminent threat to a specifically identified individual. (see, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio)

Re: The 19-year-old jailed for the crime of sarcasm

#52

Post by saraid216 »

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #38
zaroth wrote: post #19

I know articles like this bring out the trolls, but I can't get over the sheer number of commenters (on the target site) happy to see Justin being 'taught a lesson', or claiming that his speech was truly criminal. What hits me the hardest about this story is that, what if an HN post of mine strikes the wrong nerve and next thing they're coming for me? Maybe next they'll be coming for you. Or 15 years from now my kid…

I would wish her a swift expulsion from office for gross incompetence, except that this type of brainless bureaucrat really does represent the people who elect them. We live in a post-literate, lawsuit driven society where such officials are simply following the path of least resistance. I hope the parents have some really good lawyers. This thing may have to go up the chain to their Senator and perhaps a federal cou…

> As for that woman who turned him in to the police and effectively ruined his life, I'd say she deserves a nice, fat civil suit.

You're talking about the not-an-American-citizen woman?

Re: The 19-year-old jailed for the crime of sarcasm

#53

Post by _xhok »

I think the fundamental problem here is that the government doesn't really care if a 19-year-old needlessly goes to jail. Imagine things from their point of view. If an innocent 19yo goes to jail, it costs them virtually nothing. If they let him go, and he ends up actually shooting up a school, they have a lot more to lose.

It's the same reason they're ok with torturing suspected terrorists. Better to err on the conservative side for the entire country than to respect an individual's rights and risk the next 9/11.

I'm bringing this up as a problem, not as a justification. I'd be interested if anyone knows how to fix this.

Re: The 19-year-old jailed for the crime of sarcasm

#54

Post by zaroth »

jxcole wrote: post #50
zaroth wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He had a public defender, but recently got Donald Flanary to take the case pro bono. I don't know anything about Flanary, but reports indicate this is a positive development, and it seems he was able to get some traction. I think fundamentally the woman did nothing wrong, if it was truly a case of an unrelated person showing concern. If it turns out she had some more nefarious reason to throw Justin to the wolves (th…

Hate to downvote an otherwise very informative post, but tech literacy is not an issue here. If this was a hundred years before facebook existed and someone joked "Oh yes I'm insane, I am going to stab a hundred babies...ha ha ha" it would be the exact same issue.

You're right, 'tech literacy' isn't really the right words, more like 'cultural literacy' where the correct "frame of reference" in this case is MMORPG banter. Or what the courts might refer to as 'community standards'.

It's been a while since my one and only anthropology course, but the basic idea is actions and language can only be understood through a common perceptual framework between the speaker and the listener. Actions which are otherwise benign, or even loving, can seem violent or insane when the observer lacks the proper 'frame'.

One great example of this, if you're a fan of Orson Scott Card, is the humans struggling to understand the Pequeninos in Xenocide, the 3rd book in the Ender's Game series.

This is why, when I hear the statement was made in the context of a MMORPG, it immediately alters my opinion on whether Justin had mens rea (criminal intent) when he wrote the post. A hundred years ago, if communities didn't exist where this type of dialog was typical, the same words actually take on a different meaning -- one that might actually indicate a need for intervention!

Re: The 19-year-old jailed for the crime of sarcasm

#55

Post by medde »

zaroth wrote: post #19

I know articles like this bring out the trolls, but I can't get over the sheer number of commenters (on the target site) happy to see Justin being 'taught a lesson', or claiming that his speech was truly criminal. What hits me the hardest about this story is that, what if an HN post of mine strikes the wrong nerve and next thing they're coming for me? Maybe next they'll be coming for you. Or 15 years from now my kid…

is it a crime if I say: hopefully her fireworks are defective?

Re: The 19-year-old jailed for the crime of sarcasm

#56

Post by rapind »

jxcole wrote: post #50
zaroth wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He had a public defender, but recently got Donald Flanary to take the case pro bono. I don't know anything about Flanary, but reports indicate this is a positive development, and it seems he was able to get some traction. I think fundamentally the woman did nothing wrong, if it was truly a case of an unrelated person showing concern. If it turns out she had some more nefarious reason to throw Justin to the wolves (th…

Hate to downvote an otherwise very informative post, but tech literacy is not an issue here. If this was a hundred years before facebook existed and someone joked "Oh yes I'm insane, I am going to stab a hundred babies...ha ha ha" it would be the exact same issue.

Are you sure about that? Comments like the one this kid made are rampant in certain immature areas of the internet. If you're used to that sort of thing, it's more of a bad taste issue than an actual threat.

I.e. Oprah and http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/its-over-9000

Re: The 19-year-old jailed for the crime of sarcasm

#57

Post by medde »

_xhok wrote: post #53

I think the fundamental problem here is that the government doesn't really care if a 19-year-old needlessly goes to jail. Imagine things from their point of view. If an innocent 19yo goes to jail, it costs them virtually nothing. If they let him go, and he ends up actually shooting up a school, they have a lot more to lose. It's the same reason they're ok with torturing suspected terrorists. Better to err on the cons…

They could use their illegal NSA spying programs and bring out some proofs that he was not kidding?

Re: The 19-year-old jailed for the crime of sarcasm

#59

Post by phaus »

ianstallings wrote: post #37
zaroth wrote: post #19

I know articles like this bring out the trolls, but I can't get over the sheer number of commenters (on the target site) happy to see Justin being 'taught a lesson', or claiming that his speech was truly criminal. What hits me the hardest about this story is that, what if an HN post of mine strikes the wrong nerve and next thing they're coming for me? Maybe next they'll be coming for you. Or 15 years from now my kid…

There are always armchair prosecutors ready to bring out the electric chair for jaywalking. They are the same ones saying we always need to be tougher on crime even though we lock more people up than any other country. They are completely out of touch with reality.

Most of the time, when people are talking about getting tough on crime, they are talking about stuff like murder, rape, child abuse, selling crack to kids, or DUIs. They generally adopt this attitude after seeing people commit horrible crimes and get out of prison almost immediately to do the same or worse.

We do lock more people up than any other country, and it is shameful, but that doesn't mean that everyone who wants to get tough on crime is talking about locking children up for making bad jokes, or imprisoning their neighbor who occasionally smokes pot. That, my friend, is being out of touch with reality.

Re: The 19-year-old jailed for the crime of sarcasm

#60

Post by phaus »

xauronx wrote: post #45
kristopolous wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been to 4chan? Just scroll through: http://boards.4chan.org/b/ ... things like this can be considered the norm depending on what sites you go to.

That's just the thing though. Context matters a lot. Are you so excited to have something to be outraged about that you don't think about this? I mean, if I yell "I'm going to rape you" in a video game that's the equivalent of "Good game buddy", and quite innocent. I wouldn't however yell that in a public arcade at a 12 year old. The inability to discern the difference hints at mental issues that need to be discussed…

Yet, kids do scream such things in public at one another. Constantly.
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