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Frameworks Round 6

techempower.com

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Re: Frameworks Round 6

#51

Post by nahname »

neya wrote: post #41

An honest confession from someone inspired by these comparisons. I've been following these benchmarks very closely right from round one and ever since I've been waiting to see my favorite framework, Ruby on Rails perform decently to some extent. I waited till the last round to see some improvements and while I DID see some marginal improvements, it wasn't as expected. This then provoked me to do some basic math. Imag…

I've been on the other side of that equation. Building all that stuff by hand leads to incredible waste. Bike shedding, reinventing the wheel and substandard results.

Do I like Active Record? No, not really. Do I want to fight with the entire development team to force what works best for me onto everyone else? No, not really. If we are productive with AR, I'll accept it.

Re: Frameworks Round 6

#52

Post by gog »

neya wrote: post #41

An honest confession from someone inspired by these comparisons. I've been following these benchmarks very closely right from round one and ever since I've been waiting to see my favorite framework, Ruby on Rails perform decently to some extent. I waited till the last round to see some improvements and while I DID see some marginal improvements, it wasn't as expected. This then provoked me to do some basic math. Imag…

I had similar ambitions, and I wanted to play with the top performers, so I started looking at the Java (gemini) ecosystem.

And after an hour of surfing I remembered why I didn't follow through the last time I had this idea. The Java ecosystem is complex, I mean really complex.

Here are some of the terms I came by that look like I should grasp before trying to make something: servlet (various versions), servlet container (resin, tomcat, jetty, ...) , OSGi, jar, war, wab, jboss, glassfish, java standard/enterprise edition, where are classes being imported from, configuration files for different containers, JNDI, classpath...

Are there any resources for Java like http://mirnazim.org/writings/python-ecosystem-introduction/ for Python or http://www.phptherightway.com/ for PHP that would help someone to start navigating all those java-isms?

"Getting started" article for developing web applications with gemini would also be helpful.

Re: Frameworks Round 6

#53

Post by nahname »

columbo wrote: post #4

I'm really surprised at the performance of C#... honest no-flame question: how is possible it that Python is beating C#? I've been out of the .NET world for several years, almost a decade, but I always assumed they would be at Java level performance. edit add: This is really fantastic work

Something seems very off indeed. http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?t...

Re: Frameworks Round 6

#54

Post by krg »

gog wrote: post #52
neya wrote: post #41

An honest confession from someone inspired by these comparisons. I've been following these benchmarks very closely right from round one and ever since I've been waiting to see my favorite framework, Ruby on Rails perform decently to some extent. I waited till the last round to see some improvements and while I DID see some marginal improvements, it wasn't as expected. This then provoked me to do some basic math. Imag…

I had similar ambitions, and I wanted to play with the top performers, so I started looking at the Java (gemini) ecosystem. And after an hour of surfing I remembered why I didn't follow through the last time I had this idea. The Java ecosystem is complex, I mean really complex. Here are some of the terms I came by that look like I should grasp before trying to make something: servlet (various versions), servlet conta…

Hi gog,

I'm sorry you spent time trying to get started with Gemini, because it's our internal framework that isn't released yet. That would have been frustrating for you!

From our "Motivations" section: http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=motivation "Why include this Gemini framework I've never heard of?" We have included our in-house Java web framework, Gemini, in our tests. We've done so because it's of interest to us. You can consider it a stand-in for any relatively lightweight minimal-locking Java framework. While we're proud of how it performs among the well-established field, this exercise is not about Gemini. We routinely use other frameworks on client projects and we want this data to inform our recommendations for new projects.

Re: Frameworks Round 6

#55

Post by continuations »

antihero wrote: post #49

How are certain languages so much faster even when pulling from the database? Surely the database would be the bottleneck here? Surely if it's something cool the driver is doing, that could be implemented in other drivers? Also, why are some frameworks on there a bunch of times (e.g. ASP MVC)?

> Surely the database would be the bottleneck here?

The idea that "it doesn't matter which language you use because DB would be your bottleneck" might have been true 10 years ago but it's definitely not true anymore.

Latest versions of MySQL and Postgresql are extremely fast. They are written in C/C++ and heavily optimized. MySQL serving data from RAM can easily do 500K+ rps on a commodity server. Even if you need to go to disks there are $200 SSD's that give you almost 100K IOPS. Put a few of them in a RAID and you're getting hundreds of thousands of IOPS for very little money.

In all likelihood application code written in Ruby/Python/PHP with frameworks piled on top of abstractions is going to be orders of magnitude slower than the DB server written in C that has undergone 15+ years of heavy optimizations.

Re: Frameworks Round 6

#56

Post by continuations »

krg wrote: post #54
gog wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had similar ambitions, and I wanted to play with the top performers, so I started looking at the Java (gemini) ecosystem. And after an hour of surfing I remembered why I didn't follow through the last time I had this idea. The Java ecosystem is complex, I mean really complex. Here are some of the terms I came by that look like I should grasp before trying to make something: servlet (various versions), servlet conta…

Hi gog, I'm sorry you spent time trying to get started with Gemini, because it's our internal framework that isn't released yet. That would have been frustrating for you! From our "Motivations" section: http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=motivation "Why include this Gemini framework I've never heard of?" We have included our in-house Java web framework, Gemini, in our tests. We've done so because it's of…

In previous rounds there were some discussions that you were considering open sourcing Gemini. Is that still on the table or have you decided against it?

Re: Frameworks Round 6

#57

Post by krg »

continuations wrote: post #56
krg wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi gog, I'm sorry you spent time trying to get started with Gemini, because it's our internal framework that isn't released yet. That would have been frustrating for you! From our "Motivations" section: http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=motivation "Why include this Gemini framework I've never heard of?" We have included our in-house Java web framework, Gemini, in our tests. We've done so because it's of…

In previous rounds there were some discussions that you were considering open sourcing Gemini. Is that still on the table or have you decided against it?

It is still on the table, but we haven't made much internal progress on this yet. Hopefully we'll get there before too long.

Re: Frameworks Round 6

#58

Post by Peaker »

TylerE wrote: post #46
Peaker wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried modern ML-style languages? e.g: Haskell, OCaml, F#? They also combine the nice conciseness of Python, with great concurrency (better than Go) and a lot more safety (less late night crashes).

With respect, and I say this having experimented with Haskell, OCaml, any many other functional languages as well, just, no. Those languages come at a MUCH higher mental cost than go. Go is wonderful because writing it doesn't feel like I'm attempting a CompSci doctoral thesis. I can also say I have yet to see the Go runtime crash, and I am using in production. I also challenge your "better concurrency" claim.

What do you mean by "mental cost" here? Cost of initial learning? Then I agree... But learning a language is an O(1) cost that takes a few weeks to a few months. We program with the language for many years.

I never said the Go runtime will crash, but your programs will, because of unsafe nullability, mutability in the concurrently shared state, and various other problems in Go.

Better concurrency in Haskell: In addition to having light-weight threads like Go and channels like Go, Haskell also has software transactional memory which Go lacks. Haskell also has `par` annotations on pure expressions that allow parallelization with guaranteed lack of effect on program semantics. Haskell also has data parallelism.

Re: Frameworks Round 6

#59

Post by YcombRegBroken »

Peaker wrote: post #58
TylerE wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, and I say this having experimented with Haskell, OCaml, any many other functional languages as well, just, no. Those languages come at a MUCH higher mental cost than go. Go is wonderful because writing it doesn't feel like I'm attempting a CompSci doctoral thesis. I can also say I have yet to see the Go runtime crash, and I am using in production. I also challenge your "better concurrency" claim.

What do you mean by "mental cost" here? Cost of initial learning? Then I agree... But learning a language is an O(1) cost that takes a few weeks to a few months. We program with the language for many years. I never said the Go runtime will crash, but your programs will, because of unsafe nullability, mutability in the concurrently shared state, and various other problems in Go. Better concurrency in Haskell: In addit…

Haskell (and most of the other languages mentioned) is exceptionally clever. This, above all else, is it's downfall. For me, especially when tasked with building a high productivity development team, clever code is a ticking time bomb. It's easy to write, but hard to maintain and modify. It requires more mental ram to analyze any given piece of code, and is much more difficult for multiple programmers to contribute to. It's tiny, to be sure, but, again, I think that is negative, not a positive. Maximum clarity is not minimal code.

Go, on the other hand, is not clever. It's boring as hell, honestly. This is a Very Good Thing® when it comes to building out a dev team, and I feel, the single biggest reason Google put the resources into creating it.

As for the crashing, of course I see some dangerous areas. Educating developers on avoiding a small regions of pitfalls is much easier than managing a team of clever coders though.

Re: Frameworks Round 6

#60

Post by gog »

krg wrote: post #54
gog wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had similar ambitions, and I wanted to play with the top performers, so I started looking at the Java (gemini) ecosystem. And after an hour of surfing I remembered why I didn't follow through the last time I had this idea. The Java ecosystem is complex, I mean really complex. Here are some of the terms I came by that look like I should grasp before trying to make something: servlet (various versions), servlet conta…

Hi gog, I'm sorry you spent time trying to get started with Gemini, because it's our internal framework that isn't released yet. That would have been frustrating for you! From our "Motivations" section: http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=motivation "Why include this Gemini framework I've never heard of?" We have included our in-house Java web framework, Gemini, in our tests. We've done so because it's of…

Thank you,

now I understand why I couldn't find anything useful on this page http://www.eclipse.org/gemini/web/ :)

Nevertheless I am still looking for good resources on getting started with Java (ecosystem wise, not the language itself).

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