Earlier quoted context omitted.
No it's more nuanced than the 51% number. The actual law passed by Congress says "exclusively for social welfare". IRS interpretation changed that to "primarily social welfare" a few decades ago which is actually wrong since IRS cannot make laws, only implement them as written. There was a huge ruckus in congress over this matter. Can't find the video now but here's an article: http://www.psmag.com/politics/the-irss-…
Except thanks to the complexity of laws, the IRS and other federal agencies are tasked with interpreting and enforcing said laws. If Congress didn't like the interpretation they could have just passed a new law clarifying that fact.
Why the IRS is Targeting Open Source Software Groups
51–60 of 74 posts
Re: Why the IRS is Targeting Open Source Software Groups
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
People complain that government doesn't do a good enough job, but then people complain when government tries to do a better job.
Totally. Just earlier today I was reading something about how the IRS taxes citizens who have their wealth abroad. People were very angry! But these are the same people who want more taxes on the rich. All I could think was, 'Hold up a second guys, aren't you familiar with the key ways the rich avoid taxes?'
Re: Why the IRS is Targeting Open Source Software Groups
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
Totally. Just earlier today I was reading something about how the IRS taxes citizens who have their wealth abroad. People were very angry! But these are the same people who want more taxes on the rich. All I could think was, 'Hold up a second guys, aren't you familiar with the key ways the rich avoid taxes?'
That's a little different. If you moved to Europe, took a job in Europe, lived in Europe and paid taxes in Europe, you'd STILL have to pay US tax. Very few other countries do that.
Re: Why the IRS is Targeting Open Source Software Groups
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's a little different. If you moved to Europe, took a job in Europe, lived in Europe and paid taxes in Europe, you'd STILL have to pay US tax. Very few other countries do that.
Only if you make $100k+ though, from what I've read. You get an exemption if you make less than that, I believe?
Re: Why the IRS is Targeting Open Source Software Groups
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's a little different. If you moved to Europe, took a job in Europe, lived in Europe and paid taxes in Europe, you'd STILL have to pay US tax. Very few other countries do that.
Only if you make $100k+ though, from what I've read. You get an exemption if you make less than that, I believe?
Re: Why the IRS is Targeting Open Source Software Groups
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
> in the case of the Tea Party they delayed applications through the election Which shouldn't matter if they actually are social welfare organizations. If the election is that important to them, maybe they actually were hidden political orgs after all.
The law states that 501c groups are allowed to participate in politics so long as 51% of their money goes towards social welfare. For example, [1]. Would you say the same thing if planned parenthood was denied non-profit status because it is a liberal organization. [1] http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.php?cmte=C00314617&cy...
Planned Parenthood, on the other hand, is unquestionably a social welfare organization. It has offices which have doctors who provide a wide range of sexual and reproductive medical services to many women who would otherwise be unable to obtain them. If you look at their budge, 70% goes directly towards medical services. Less than 10% goes towards public policy; and what does, is advocating for policies to be able to continue the social welfare services that they provide, nothing else. Those figures you linked to for donations to political candidates represent less than 0.05% of their budget.
Where are the tea party offices that provide medical services to low income residents? Or heck, if you want to be fair to them, where are the tea party offices that provide tax advice to people who want to lower their tax burden? Of course, it's kind of hard to come up with examples of social welfare services that tea party groups could provide, because as far as I can tell, the tea party movement is primarily about opposition to social welfare, and a variety of political goals involving the reduction of the federal government. Even trying to stretch my imagination, I can't think of any social welfare programs that tea party groups would actually provide. I suppose they could qualify for tax exempt status if they shipped 51% of their revenues to other social welfare organizations that they supported, but that seems more like a tax dodge than an honest assessment of the purpose of the organizations.
Now, back on topic, I think that the software groups are sometimes more of a grey area. While there is a lot of open source software that is developed solely for social welfare reasons, there's also a good deal that is developed primarily by for-profit corporations. If there will be more than one for-profit company working on a joint project, it is common to set up a non-profit foundation that organizes the collaboration, or use an existing one. On the one hand, this can sound an awful lot like for profit companies trying to claim that their joint venture is actually a social welfare organization. On the other hand, due to the fact that the code is shared publicly and available for anyone to study and modify, it is arguably promoting social welfare and thus should be eligible.
If you check the actual recommendation, you will see that they have no specific recommendation for this type of situation; all it advises is "The [sic] is no specific guidance at this point. If you see a case, elevate it to your manager."
Re: Why the IRS is Targeting Open Source Software Groups
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
The law states that 501c groups are allowed to participate in politics so long as 51% of their money goes towards social welfare. For example, [1]. Would you say the same thing if planned parenthood was denied non-profit status because it is a liberal organization. [1] http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.php?cmte=C00314617&cy...
If a group could be considered a "tea party" group, that pretty much indicates that it's primarily a political group; the term "party" specifically refers to a political institution. If a tea party group does some form of social welfare, that doesn't change the fact that it's primarily a political institution. Planned Parenthood, on the other hand, is unquestionably a social welfare organization. It has offices which…
Re: Why the IRS is Targeting Open Source Software Groups
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wow, if you're being downvoted for saying that, I guess there must be a lot of Tea Party supporters here who are misusing downvotes to express disagreement. Or maybe they don't get that political organizations should not ever be charitable "social welfare" organizations, on the left or the right. In any case, it seems to me that you've got an excellent point. And the fact is that there's tons of evidence that the IRS…
First of all, the IRS admitted to and apologized for specifically targeting conservative groups. Denying it at this point is absurd. Second of all, the legal definition of a "social welfare" organization is that it spends at least 51% of its money on social welfare. So legally it's allowed to spend the other 49% of its money on politics. Plenty of organizations, both liberal and conservative, take advantage of this r…
That's a pretty sucky rule, but regardless, I'd still have a hard time believing a "Tea Party" group would ONLY spend 49% of its money on politics, so I'm sorry, but I have to say "ha ha" that they missed a chance to influence the election.
I don't care if they apologized. That's PR 101 these days, regardless of fault. They also targeted progressive groups. And open source groups, apparently. Maybe they did target MORE Tea Party groups, or maybe there were just more Tea Party applicants than progressive group applicants. Regardless, it's all mob mentality lynching of the IRS without enough evidence to know what was really going on.
And I guess people who point out that it's not necessarily an actual conspiracy get downvoted for bursting that particular bubble. So be it.
Re: Why the IRS is Targeting Open Source Software Groups
#59The real scandal here happened in 1959. When Congress passed created 501(c)(4)s, the law said that (emphasis is mine): "Civic leagues or organizations not organized for profit but operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare". In other words, 501(c)(4)s were intended to be allowed to spend NO MONEY on politics. However, a 1959 IRS regulation decided that "exclusively" (0%) really meant "primarily"(up to 4…
To me it seems like an abrogation of the independent role of the judicial arm. In Australia, for example, the courts jealously defend their rights and powers to interpret legislation to divine the intent of Parliament. Each government agency has no more standing or influence than anyone else.
IANAL, TINLA.
Re: Why the IRS is Targeting Open Source Software Groups
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except thanks to the complexity of laws, the IRS and other federal agencies are tasked with interpreting and enforcing said laws. If Congress didn't like the interpretation they could have just passed a new law clarifying that fact.
So... if "the sky is blue" is interpreted to mean, "the sky is green," we have to wait for Congress to pass a new law stating, "the sky isn't green?"
Law is not static. Congress or Parliament makes its legislation, ambiguity arises in corner cases, Courts are asked to sort it out. Courts try to divine the intention of Congress or Parliament. If Congress or Parliament disagree with that interpretation then yes: it's up to them to change the law. Otherwise, by failure to further Act, they conceptually support the Court's interpretation of their intent.