Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers • Hacker News Board

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#51

Post by mseebach » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 3:55 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #42

mseebach wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inextricable from this evaluation is the fact that the guy who saved 1% of the electricity used at Facebook could probably have a tremendously larger impact on the environment if he dedicated his skills entirely to the public service. That's not "fact". At all. Some people certainly have great impact in public service, but most are pushing paper around and navigating bureaucracy and a brand of office politics unhea…

I know this is great mythology, but if those people ever existed in the first place, they've been pushed out over the last 15 years of effective budget cuts (compared to costs of employment like healthcare) in most domestic public service roles. It kills me to see people who get free sodas and 150k while commenting on Hacker News presume that a workplace they've never been is some wasteful USSR-esque bureaucracy. Yes…

So obviously hyperbole for colour. Thought that was clear from including a coffee-fetcher for the coffee-fetcher. But it's fact that that getting to any real responsibility involves playing a long game of politics that inherently doesn't value merit very highly - and that the guy who saves 1% at Facebook did not have to jump through those hoops to get to there. Which loops back to my assertion that it's not a sound conclusion that the Facebook guy could have done more in public service.

> It kills me to see people who get free sodas and 150k while commenting on Hacker News presume that a workplace they've never been is some wasteful USSR-esque bureaucracy.

Interestingly, that does not seem to extend to the same demographic presuming that government magically became efficient throughout because they were pushed a little on budgets?

> If you're looking for a corporate mess with no cost accountability, look at the big government contractors.

If there were all straight lines and accountability in the government, then their contractors wouldn't be getting away with it.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#52

Post by rch » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 3:56 PM UTC

jmduke wrote: post #39

sharkweek wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amazing how competitive it is to get a job in the public sector. I tried for over a year to get a job at the GAO, only to find their hiring process almost impossible to breach. One of my friends, a recent law school graduate, wants nothing more than to work in the public sector. He has been out of school for the past nine months applying for various jobs with the local counties, only to realize that there is MA…

Separate from the morality/public service bit (which I agree with rayiner about), I think it's interesting that public sector work is often the most demanding and rewarding (not in a feel-good sense) work out there. Usually this is equated with law/diplomatic positions, but I think there's something about the low-budget quick-turnaround nature and general sense of gravitas that brings out the best work of people. I h…

I think this may be the story you intended to include with your second link:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4842510

http://kylerush.net/blog/meet-the-obama-campaigns-250-millio...

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#53

Post by theboywho » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 3:56 PM UTC

jenius wrote: post #3

I've gotta agree with Appelbaum - this thesis is ridiculous and unsupported. There are tons of activists in many different fields, and there's nothing about being a computer programmer that makes you more likely to be an activist. Just because this guy cited a couple of activists who were also computer programmers is just not support enough -- if he really wanted a balanced review, he would have talked about any acti…

The author of this article was a victim of the availability bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#54

Post by jmduke » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 4:02 PM UTC

rch wrote: post #52

jmduke wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Separate from the morality/public service bit (which I agree with rayiner about), I think it's interesting that public sector work is often the most demanding and rewarding (not in a feel-good sense) work out there. Usually this is equated with law/diplomatic positions, but I think there's something about the low-budget quick-turnaround nature and general sense of gravitas that brings out the best work of people. I h…

I think this may be the story you intended to include with your second link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4842510 http://kylerush.net/blog/meet-the-obama-campaigns-250-millio...

My ability to copy and paste is embarrassing.

Thanks for the catch -- edited the original post :)

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#55

Post by sanj » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 4:03 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

I can't agree more. My family has one of each: I write code and am the technical weenie where my wife is a do-gooder trying to change laws to treat kids differently than adults.

I'm absolutely in awe of what her tiny four person organization is able to accomplish: they do research, talk to legislators, write reports, testify in the state senate, organize with other groups. They do all this while watching and analyzing local news to calculate its impact on the voting probabilities in the state congress. All of this while making 20-25% of what they'd be paid in private practice.

That's all fine and dandy, but the real kicker is how successful they are: their last effort passed 154-0 in the house: unanimous.

So you can sit around and turn your Facebook avatar any color you want and pretend it matters. I take great solace in the fact that there are people out there actually changing the world.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#56

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 4:04 PM UTC

jakejake wrote: post #45

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

It sounds totally believable that your friends are having trouble finding work. It doesn't sound very believable that they are turning down six figure jobs left and right, though. Unless you just meant that they chose a career path where there are no six figure jobs?

[deleted]

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#57

Post by jdietrich » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 4:06 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

A good hacker is wasted in public service.

Why bother working for an environmental non-profit when you can make many orders of magnitude more difference by founding Tesla Motors or Nanosolar? Who has more impact on education, a good elementary teacher or Sal Khan? Why campaign for privacy when you can write PGP or Tor, why work as a fundraiser when you could build Kiva or Watsi?

The hacker skillset is a lever big enough to move the world. Working for a nonprofit is no better than working for a bank, you're still frittering away your greatest opportunity to improve the world.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#58

Post by nickpinkston » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 4:13 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #57

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

A good hacker is wasted in public service. Why bother working for an environmental non-profit when you can make many orders of magnitude more difference by founding Tesla Motors or Nanosolar? Who has more impact on education, a good elementary teacher or Sal Khan? Why campaign for privacy when you can write PGP or Tor, why work as a fundraiser when you could build Kiva or Watsi? The hacker skillset is a lever big eno…

Just don't go out and build some bullshit Zygna for pets app and call it "changing the world"...

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#59

Post by JamisonM » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 4:18 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #57

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

A good hacker is wasted in public service. Why bother working for an environmental non-profit when you can make many orders of magnitude more difference by founding Tesla Motors or Nanosolar? Who has more impact on education, a good elementary teacher or Sal Khan? Why campaign for privacy when you can write PGP or Tor, why work as a fundraiser when you could build Kiva or Watsi? The hacker skillset is a lever big eno…

Your definition of "good hacker" must narrow down who is a real hacker to a few thousand people in the whole world. Many of the best computer hackers I've known could barely organize a picnic if they had to, let alone run an industry-changing company.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#60

Post by nawitus » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 4:19 PM UTC

sanj wrote: post #55

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

I can't agree more. My family has one of each: I write code and am the technical weenie where my wife is a do-gooder trying to change laws to treat kids differently than adults. I'm absolutely in awe of what her tiny four person organization is able to accomplish: they do research, talk to legislators, write reports, testify in the state senate, organize with other groups. They do all this while watching and analyzin…

A lot of 'nerds' are actually politically active with the Pirate movement. The difference is that it's 100x more difficult to pass a single law when you're trying to change stuff like copyright laws. And over 99.9% of people active in the movement are getting paid 0$/h.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party

"I take great solace in the fact that there are people out there actually changing the world."

As if the only way to change the world is through legislation.