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Dear WordPress

ma.tt

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Re: Dear WordPress

#51

Post by krapp »

sgdesign wrote: post #45
adamors wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, Wordpress is used by people who don't know and do not want to know what those things are. I dare say, even PHP is mostly used by people who don't know what most of what you wrote is. I've seen even Magento forum members (Magento being a complex e-commerce solution written on the Zend framework) saying they do not know how to write more than a couple of lines of PHP.

I'm not sure I agree about the "do not want to know" part. After 5 minutes with Git I don't see how anyone would want to stick with FTP… But yeah, the fact that WordPress hosting plays so badly with git is a big part of the reason why I probably won't be using it again.

FTP is a vastly simpler process to accomplish what it does -- transfer files from point A to point B. And if all you would be using Git for is, essentially, pushing the contents of a repository to a remote server, then it can sort of be akin to driving a Lamborghini Murcielago around to the corner store.

Re: Dear WordPress

#52

Post by krapp »

alxhill wrote: post #49
sgdesign wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree about the "do not want to know" part. After 5 minutes with Git I don't see how anyone would want to stick with FTP… But yeah, the fact that WordPress hosting plays so badly with git is a big part of the reason why I probably won't be using it again.

> After 5 minutes with Git I don't see how anyone would want to stick with FTP… You're assuming you're dealing with someone at least a bit technical. To them, FTP is drag and drop, git is either 'hacking' or magic.

To be fair, Git is probably arcane to quite a few 'technical' people as well, and a lot of the people who do use Git probably fall into the set including myself who would be lost beyond the basic 'init, add files, branch, merge, push to remote' stuff.

Re: Dear WordPress

#53

Post by btilly »

sgdesign wrote: post #45
adamors wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, Wordpress is used by people who don't know and do not want to know what those things are. I dare say, even PHP is mostly used by people who don't know what most of what you wrote is. I've seen even Magento forum members (Magento being a complex e-commerce solution written on the Zend framework) saying they do not know how to write more than a couple of lines of PHP.

I'm not sure I agree about the "do not want to know" part. After 5 minutes with Git I don't see how anyone would want to stick with FTP… But yeah, the fact that WordPress hosting plays so badly with git is a big part of the reason why I probably won't be using it again.

I have used git. I've accidentally gotten myself into messes that take a lot more learning to undo.

If my goal is the functionality of ftp, I prefer ftp in every way except the security issue. (Which is why I use scp instead.)

Re: Dear WordPress

#54

Post by jasey »

john-n wrote: post #6

I can appreciate what wordpress has achieved over the years, and what it has helped to create. But the current wordpress code base is a nightmare to work with, and doesn't scale well. Having said that, it is an excellent blogging platform and CMS, but this is something that is usually forgotten, resulting in it finding itself shoehorned into the most inappropriate places.

>But the current wordpress code base is a nightmare to work with

I agree

>and doesn't scale well.

Wordpress scales fine, but it dosent do it magically its self out of the box (but what hobbyist web project written 10 years ago did?)

Smashing magazine talked to some of the bigger wp installs to see how they did it (Hot air is doing 45mil /page view a month) http://wp.smashingmagazine.com/2012/09/12/secrets-high-traff...

I have scaled Wordpress to multiple front end servers with not to much work (because Wordpress is stateless and doesn't have sessions you dont even have to worry bout sharing sessions).

The only thing you need to worry about is having a shared storage for the uploads. You can do this through a NAS or I just upload to s3 then use a CDN.

If you get to the size that you need to have multiple databases (which you shouldn't if your using a page cache plugin like the official Batcache plugin) wordpress offers HyperDB as a solution.

I am actually going to be working on a Wordpress-a-a-Service type hosting solution where speed and scalability will never be a problem for the customer.

Where Wordpress does not scale is the default install on shared hosting or a VPS with little resources.

Finally I just wanted to thank Matt and the whole team at automatic for all their hard work into a maybe in-prefect but much used work-horse of the internet.

Re: Dear WordPress

#55

Post by jacques_chester »

jasey wrote: post #54
john-n wrote: post #6

I can appreciate what wordpress has achieved over the years, and what it has helped to create. But the current wordpress code base is a nightmare to work with, and doesn't scale well. Having said that, it is an excellent blogging platform and CMS, but this is something that is usually forgotten, resulting in it finding itself shoehorned into the most inappropriate places.

>But the current wordpress code base is a nightmare to work with I agree >and doesn't scale well. Wordpress scales fine, but it dosent do it magically its self out of the box (but what hobbyist web project written 10 years ago did?) Smashing magazine talked to some of the bigger wp installs to see how they did it (Hot air is doing 45mil /page view a month) http://wp.smashingmagazine.com/2012/09/12/secrets-high-traff.…

> Wordpress scales fine, but it dosent do it magically its self out of the box

10 years, still no file cache shipping with the mainline. That solves 90% of the problem for 90% of sites.

Re: Dear WordPress

#56

Post by jasey »

jacques_chester wrote: post #55
jasey wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But the current wordpress code base is a nightmare to work with I agree >and doesn't scale well. Wordpress scales fine, but it dosent do it magically its self out of the box (but what hobbyist web project written 10 years ago did?) Smashing magazine talked to some of the bigger wp installs to see how they did it (Hot air is doing 45mil /page view a month) http://wp.smashingmagazine.com/2012/09/12/secrets-high-traff.…

> Wordpress scales fine, but it dosent do it magically its self out of the box 10 years, still no file cache shipping with the mainline. That solves 90% of the problem for 90% of sites.

Yes It would be nice, but there is just to many options on how to do the caching and this all depends on the hosting environment.

http://codex.wordpress.org/Class_Reference/WP_Object_Cache#P...

On the other hand, as of my understanding Drupal does page caching to DB by default (straight out of the box?) and seems super quick.

Re: Dear WordPress

#57

Post by jacques_chester »

jasey wrote: post #56
jacques_chester wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wordpress scales fine, but it dosent do it magically its self out of the box 10 years, still no file cache shipping with the mainline. That solves 90% of the problem for 90% of sites.

Yes It would be nice, but there is just to many options on how to do the caching and this all depends on the hosting environment. http://codex.wordpress.org/Class_Reference/WP_Object_Cache#P... On the other hand, as of my understanding Drupal does page caching to DB by default (straight out of the box?) and seems super quick.

Yes, yes, the famous hosting environment argument. It comes up whenever the WP team just don't want to do work on the actual guts of the system as opposed to tickbox features.

When they added autoupdate, that had large host environment implications. Import/export has host environment implications. It goes on and on.

There's no technical reason they can't have a simple page cache in mainline that turns itself off when there's no write access.

Re: Dear WordPress

#58

Post by Bockit »

sgdesign wrote: post #45
adamors wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, Wordpress is used by people who don't know and do not want to know what those things are. I dare say, even PHP is mostly used by people who don't know what most of what you wrote is. I've seen even Magento forum members (Magento being a complex e-commerce solution written on the Zend framework) saying they do not know how to write more than a couple of lines of PHP.

I'm not sure I agree about the "do not want to know" part. After 5 minutes with Git I don't see how anyone would want to stick with FTP… But yeah, the fact that WordPress hosting plays so badly with git is a big part of the reason why I probably won't be using it again.

I was helping a designer-only friend of mine with the implementation of a basic website theme. After an hour of trying to talk them through how to use the github app (let alone git command line) I gave up and we just used dropbox.

The point being, sadly, I think that we're a ways off before the average non-technical person is comfortable using git.

Re: Dear WordPress

#59

Post by ceol »

bigiain wrote: post #42
khet wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the feeling that those who "like" wordpress are either heavily invested in the platform or can't read code. Simpler, more specialised blogging engines are so beautifully designed, I don't see myself ever wanting to work with Wordpress again.

I'm not fan of the codebase, but until something else comes along that's as easy for my clients to learn/use - I'm going to keep on recommending and installing WordPress for them. Anybody who's used a word processor can pick up most of what they need to know to work as an author or editor in WordPress in a afternoon. I'm not about to recreate all the widely available documentation and tutorials WordPress has availabl…

I imagine the reason most people use WordPress isn't because of the authoring or editing — most of which can be replicated easily using things like TinyMCE — but the ecosystem of themes and plugins. Your technologically-inept client has access to a vast number of free, cheap, and easily installable themes to style their website whatever gaudy way they want.

There are plenty of better publishing solutions in terms of codebase, and there are plenty of solutions that offer equal or better user interfaces, but none that bring the ability to choose from hundreds of thousands of themes to style a website, which is the main focus of your average blog publisher.

Re: Dear WordPress

#60

Post by ceol »

krapp wrote: post #52
alxhill wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After 5 minutes with Git I don't see how anyone would want to stick with FTP… You're assuming you're dealing with someone at least a bit technical. To them, FTP is drag and drop, git is either 'hacking' or magic.

To be fair, Git is probably arcane to quite a few 'technical' people as well, and a lot of the people who do use Git probably fall into the set including myself who would be lost beyond the basic 'init, add files, branch, merge, push to remote' stuff.

Yes, the folks using version control of any kind, let alone git, are in the minority.
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