Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 60 posts

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#51

Post by Aloisius »

lomegor wrote: post #13

Wow, it seems most of the comment here, as of now, decided to overlook the parts of the article that explicitly state problems that are most suffered by women. For example, how this woman had a boss who stroke her hair, or how another boss hated to hire women. That kind of pressure does not exist for most men in the industry. Yes, men suffer from high performance demands in business, but this is not oppression Olympi…

Wow, it seems most of the comment here, as of now, decided to overlook the parts of the article that explicitly state problems that are most suffered by women. For example, how this woman had a boss who stroke her hair, or how another boss hated to hire women. That kind of pressure does not exist for most men in the industry.

I think the problem really is that those examples happened to her nearly 30 years ago and then she goes on to say, "Women today face a new, more virile and virulent sexism" because supposedly VCs only fund male hackers.

This does not mesh up with many of the collective experiences of those who started working in the last decade or two. It seems impossible that sexism is worse now than it was in the 80s.

That isn't to say that sexism doesn't exist. I've run several startups and I'm constantly vigilant towards this stuff. I've had to occasionally call out male employees for making inappropriate comments. They tend towards being sexual rather than sexist, but it always shocks me when it happens. But compared to ongoing physical sexually harassment? I can't see how it could possibly be more poisonous now than thirty years ago.

Now it could be that sexism is worse today and the misunderstanding is around how men vs. women classify the severity of various sexist acts. If so, that is an article I'd like to read.

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#52

Post by blocking_io »

joyeuse6701 wrote: post #50

Replace programmer with nearly any profession and replace women with any minority group in that profession during the 80s and the article will largely be the same. It's the same old story (which is disturbing on a few levels). Male programmers will be defensive because they are villains in this anecdote. The article polarized men as evil and women as good, their perspective of reality does not align with this post 20…

The article polarized men as evil and women as good

Where?

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#53

Post by andyl »

jvm wrote: post #46
andyl wrote: post #32

Yet another article on Gender politics. Where is the advocacy for black/hispanic/old programmers? Having said that, I wish there were less politics on HN. I read "Hacker News" for technology and startups, not social engineering.

Considering sexism and racism in your own industry to be "special interest" topics of no interest is probably the surest sign of being a proud beneficiary of those dynamics. They're of paramount concern to anyone who doesn't benefit. I'm not at all disagreeing that more advocacy based on race would be useful too, but I do disagree vehemently with the idea that the solution is to cut off discussion. If you're wonderin…

I'm an old person. It is quite impossible for me to get a job as a developer, or anything else really. And - I don't care. I focus on doing excellent work, not on grievances, whining, or complaining.

The world is enormous, and there is unstoppable demand for excellent work. So-called discrimination doesn't change that.

'Waa, people don't treat me nice!' That's loser talk.

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#54

Post by gwwar »

simonv3 wrote: post #40
gwwar wrote: post #30

A few points: 1) It's 2013. If you work with men that don't know women are people, find a new job. If they did something excessively stupid or harmful, you should sue them to discourage them from harassing other women. Interviewing is a two way street, you should not only prove that you're able to do a job, but also find out if you want to work with these people. 2) Why learn from asshole managers? The internet exist…

On 3) why is it that in a field where people are lauded (especially here on HN) when they drop out of college or skip college all together and are successful, we continue to come back to the "there are less women graduates" argument?

The lack of credentials are usually forgiven when he or she is a founder/entrepreneur or an early hire. If they happen to be successful (which is rare) why wouldn't we celebrate that? Everyone loves an underdog story.

Now with that in mind, would you hire someone that didn't have a degree?

A degree is a basic filter. How do you prove you have some knowledge about computers and programming? Traditionally it's a degree. If someone already has a bias that women can't program, the chances that she'll land an interview without a degree is slim to none.

In any case, a proper university will teach you the fundamentals. They will give you tools that will help you continue learning in the future, like how to recognize categories of problems, and a general sense of how things are abstracted from high level languages down to the bare metal. Learning "practical" knowledge of current languages/frameworks should be easy after that.

If I'm hiring for an open developer position and they have no degree (in CS/Math/Physics), it's usually a red flag for me.

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#55

Post by rxp »

babarock wrote: post #22
rxp wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And... you're satisfied with that explanation? "There are fewer women in technical careers, because fewer women choose to go into technical careers, QED"? You're not even a little bit curious about why that might be the case?

Aren't you curious why the majority of programmers have dark hair or brown eyes? Sometimes it doesn't matter. I do not necessarily agree with my grandparent comment, but are you advocating going out of your ways to find a problem out of statistics? I'm also fed up with the whole "sexism in tech" bla bla. I don't want more women in tech. I want more talented, more dynamic, more interested or more passionate people in…

> Aren't you curious why the majority of programmers have dark hair or brown eyes? Sometimes it doesn't matter.

Is that actually true? If there's a statistically significant difference compared to the population as a whole, then I am definitely interested in why.

I don't understand where you're coming from at all. You care about women in the tech industry, you want more good people in the industry, but you don't care at all about social forces that might be driving people away? Not even enough to wonder about what they are?

When there's obviously something driving people away from tech, then I'm sorry, but you can't say "I don't care let's stop talking about this" and pretend that that's a neutral position.

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#56

Post by zem »

andyl wrote: post #53
jvm wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering sexism and racism in your own industry to be "special interest" topics of no interest is probably the surest sign of being a proud beneficiary of those dynamics. They're of paramount concern to anyone who doesn't benefit. I'm not at all disagreeing that more advocacy based on race would be useful too, but I do disagree vehemently with the idea that the solution is to cut off discussion. If you're wonderin…

I'm an old person. It is quite impossible for me to get a job as a developer, or anything else really. And - I don't care. I focus on doing excellent work, not on grievances, whining, or complaining. The world is enormous, and there is unstoppable demand for excellent work. So-called discrimination doesn't change that. 'Waa, people don't treat me nice!' That's loser talk.

"that's loser talk" pretty much works out to victim-blaming. you're saying that it's the fault of the people being discriminated against for not being tough enough to be successful anyway.

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#58

Post by cubsink »

blocking_io wrote: post #52
joyeuse6701 wrote: post #50

Replace programmer with nearly any profession and replace women with any minority group in that profession during the 80s and the article will largely be the same. It's the same old story (which is disturbing on a few levels). Male programmers will be defensive because they are villains in this anecdote. The article polarized men as evil and women as good, their perspective of reality does not align with this post 20…

The article polarized men as evil and women as good Where?

Like: " Over the 20 years that followed, I found that being a woman put me at one remove from the general society of programmers. "

...and: "We women found ourselves nearly alone, outsiders in a culture that was sometimes boyishly puerile, sometimes rigorously hierarchical, occasionally friendly and welcoming. "

and it just goes on. This is why most men hate feminism. I would not hire a women with that attitude.

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#59

Post by elisehein »

While unrelated to the topic of discrimination, I just wanted to take this chance and say that Ellen Ullman writes beautifully -- I recognised her signature style before seeing the author's name at the bottom.

Here is another beautiful excerpt from a book of her's that I'm sure everyone can relate to http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2012/07/26/close-to-t...

Re: How to Be a ‘Woman Programmer’

#60

Post by cafard »

simonv3 wrote: post #35
revelation wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument was not an attempt in what you so non-chalantly call "oppression Olympics", but rather to illustrate what some people might ascribe to discrimination is really just common-place. You are also misunderstanding the "small pool of women CS graduates". It's not to suggest that theres no discrimination, but that theres possibly not much you can do at the stage of post-graduation. That this is a result of dis…

Think about all the kids who don't see women in the tech fields and thus don't see it as a viable career path. The "small pool of women CS graduates" argument is bunkt because CS is a meritocracy - so many men prove themselves through code rather than having gone to a college, and the only reason women don't is because they're discouraged at every turn - upon being hired, in the work place, at social gatherings. Why…

Where do kids see people in tech fields, unless their parents work in them? Maybe you could count the math & science faculty of high school or college, maybe it's popular culture?
Post reply on HN