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A Proposal: Renaming Backend/Frontend to Application/UI Developers

theothersideofcode.com

51–60 of 77 posts

Re: A Proposal: Renaming Backend/Frontend to Application/UI Developers

#51

I personally would prefer to see this divide: - Product developer - implements the functionality, from the database to the functional UI. Lives in Ruby/Python/PHP/etc. AND Javascript - UI designer - creates and implements visual designs. Lives in Photoshop and HTML/CSS - Dev Ops - maintains the infrastructure, optimizes resources, manages deployment. Lives on the command line Of course, all these rolls have crossover…

My problem as a designer living in code is that by calling myself "UI Designer" (or "Web Designer" for that matter), I'm putting myself in the same boat as people who don't know any code (I'm basing this off of seeing what people on Dribbble's titles/"skills" are). I much prefer "UI Developer" to "Designer" because that implies I am actually able to build what I've designed while acknowledging the design/interface aspect.

Re: A Proposal: Renaming Backend/Frontend to Application/UI Developers

#52
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you answer to managers and build CRUD apps to support their careers rather than your own, then you're not a professional. Pretty amazing statement from someone whose comments are otherwise among the best here on Hacker News. 1. CRUD apps run the world. They were here long before all this sexy unnecssary stuff and will be here long after these fads pass. 2. Whether you want to admit it or not, everyone answers to s…

1. CRUD apps run the world. They were here long before all this sexy unnecssary stuff and will be here long after these fads pass. Fair point. "CRUD" is a straw man. Actually, most apps should be simple. That's just good design. If CRUD is enough to solve the problem, then one shouldn't do more if it compromises simplicity or conceptual integrity. 2. Whether you want to admit it or not, everyone answers to someone. S…

  We don't have the right to tell our bosses, "I won't do that, because it's unethical".
What do you mean we don't have that right? As a human being, I always hold that right and will use it if necessary. Fuck a job - if a decision that I have the power to make/not make results in something unethical happening then I'll make sure the person telling me knows this. And if they still insist, then I walk. Just like your doctor analogy.

Re: A Proposal: Renaming Backend/Frontend to Application/UI Developers

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you answer to managers.." I know you usually have good comments on HN, but is it just me or you really have something against "management". Anyway, the fact is that everyone answers to someone in some ways when it comes to money which we need to make to survive in this world unless you have family inheritance. Having said that, I am not saying that managers are necessarily the best thing in this world but i don't…

I wrote about my views on management, here: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/gervais-macle... Essentially, "manager" is a conflation of several corporate needs: (a) mentoring junior hires, (b) protecting the company from bad-faith employees, (c) protecting good employees from bad ones, (d) setting project priorities, and (e) putting a public face on the company (e.g. CEOs). Some of these jobs are more f…

Perhaps you don't have much experience with the modern police force? Much of their budget comes from asset forfeiture, which is your basic perverse incentive.

Re: A Proposal: Renaming Backend/Frontend to Application/UI Developers

#54
If only it were so simple. And if you think it is that's probably because you don't understand.

Frontend often is WAY more than UI. When you are building a client/server application frontend can be far more than UI. Take Call Of Duty for an example. UI is not appropriate for all of the Client side development.

Take Google Now as an example. While most the heavy lifting is on the server, the Frontend is also doing data gathering, and calls to the Database on the phone that stores contacts. So a lot of the frontend is not UI.

For our TLDR Plugin for chrome we started out using Readability.JS and when that needed tweaks we ended up moving to server side readability. But before that, much of the Backend logic that we had been using for our search engine was being put in to the client ported from Python to JavaScript. That was not UI, but was very much frontend.

I think the people who want to name Frontend developers UI Developers tend to be the people that think that Building HTML is development rather than Design and Implementation.

True Frontend is about making appropriate decisions about which things live on Client and which live on server.

Re: A Proposal: Renaming Backend/Frontend to Application/UI Developers

#55
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you answer to managers and build CRUD apps to support their careers rather than your own, then you're not a professional. Pretty amazing statement from someone whose comments are otherwise among the best here on Hacker News. 1. CRUD apps run the world. They were here long before all this sexy unnecssary stuff and will be here long after these fads pass. 2. Whether you want to admit it or not, everyone answers to s…

1. CRUD apps run the world. They were here long before all this sexy unnecssary stuff and will be here long after these fads pass. Fair point. "CRUD" is a straw man. Actually, most apps should be simple. That's just good design. If CRUD is enough to solve the problem, then one shouldn't do more if it compromises simplicity or conceptual integrity. 2. Whether you want to admit it or not, everyone answers to someone. S…

I continue to think that you're over-romanticizing traditional engineering. I'm a mechanical engineer by training, have many peers still in the field, and worked in it before switching fields myself.

In fact, the major reason why I switched out of mechanical engineering into software was because my experience is very much the opposite of how you seem to think traditional engineering works.

> "The defining trait of a profession is a set of ethics (that one professes) and processes to which one subordinates."

This is reasonable. This is what separates accountants, lawyers, doctors, and yes, traditional engineers from software engineers.

The question is how well these ethics and standards are enforced in actuality. The sad reality is, for traditional engineering, not well at all, to the point where the ethical bar for software is frequently higher.

I left the field after working at an automotive parts maker (who shall rename blissfully unnamed) when I saw, first-hand, sub-standard products being shipped deliberately, extreme managerial incompetence, safety standards being compromised, willful disregard of the public's safety, and fraud. And none of this was particularly unique to where I worked.

There are many interesting stories here. Including one where the company shipped a large batch of motors to an automaker knowing full well that all failed QA standards in some way or another, and many were completely defective. When the automaker eventually returned the shipment, instead of replacing them with good parts, the company knowingly and deliberately hired minimum-wage workers to test and pick out the "best" parts from the defective pile, to minimize the amount of manufacturing the company would have to do.

I was also asked, at one point, to find "proof" that a series of car fires were not caused by the company's defective design. At this point it was already obvious to everyone that we were the culprits. Management spent weeks, if not months, ducking this while people continued driving those cars on the road.

I was also involved with a project where radiators were literally falling out of the cars due to cutting corners and the use of substandard materials. The solution to which is not replacement with good parts, but rather shipping dealerships strengthening screws and endcaps, the notion being that as long as the incidence rate was low enough the company can simply afford to settle whatever lawsuits came out of it. At no point was actually fixing the defective parts on the table.

And here we thought we learned a few things from the Ford Pinto.

Mind you, this is a regulated profession, with a well-stated code of ethics. It did no good here - management had employees over a barrel. People were dangerously overworked, both on the factory floor and in the design office, and the state of the auto industry meant that no one could afford to speak up. The whole place stank of the very thing you were originally railing against - people working on meaningless things, working for horrible managers, looking out for their own survival more than the public welfare.

So yeah, traditional engineering does a nice song and dance about being ethical, making it possible for employees to blow the whistle on abuse, that an engineer can just tell their boss to fuck off when something unethical is asked of them.

In reality, none of that truly exists. Traditional engineering, in actual practice, is closer to software engineering than you think.

Re: A Proposal: Renaming Backend/Frontend to Application/UI Developers

#57

Zed Shaw already solved this problem: http://programming-motherfucker.com . What made programming great (before the Douchebag Invasion came in and we were divided into these stupid warring camps) is now what makes "data science" attractive: the generalist flair and the ability to pick your projects and move around the economy by your own sail. By the way, I personally hate the term "software engineer", at least as co…

As an aside about CRUD apps. I've been kicking around the idea of building and selling a universal CRUD app. Do you think there would be a market for that? How would I sell it?

Hhhhhmmmm... I would develop it in an interesting language from Japan...

Re: A Proposal: Renaming Backend/Frontend to Application/UI Developers

#58
post #20

Zed Shaw already solved this problem: http://programming-motherfucker.com . What made programming great (before the Douchebag Invasion came in and we were divided into these stupid warring camps) is now what makes "data science" attractive: the generalist flair and the ability to pick your projects and move around the economy by your own sail. By the way, I personally hate the term "software engineer", at least as co…

If you answer to managers and build CRUD apps to support their careers rather than your own, then you're not a professional. Pretty amazing statement from someone whose comments are otherwise among the best here on Hacker News. 1. CRUD apps run the world. They were here long before all this sexy unnecssary stuff and will be here long after these fads pass. 2. Whether you want to admit it or not, everyone answers to s…

The point is, building a CRUD app is a task that has been done so many times, and frameworks like Rails, Django, Play, et al have abstracted away the challenging parts to the point where it's no longer a technically hard problem and does not require a particularly skilled programmer. The current crop of frameworks are now just one level of abstraction away from the point where a non-programmer will be able to build a functioning CRUD app with a few mouseclicks (just like Wordpress), at which point it will no longer be necessary to employ professional programmers to build them. With the next generation of CRUD app frameworks, they'll be able to give that task to someone like a business analyst, who has other responsibilities and who they can pay much less than they would have to pay someone with a CS degree.

Programming belongs on the cutting edge, the place where we build things that were never possible before. CRUD apps are about collecting data, but that problem has been solved already. Now the problem is we have too much data and aren't sure how to make sense of all of it. So the cutting edge is now at building machine learning algorithms on top of MapReduce processing, to automate high-level decisionmaking based on massive, diverse, distributed sets of data. That's where the important "engineer" jobs are going to be.

Re: A Proposal: Renaming Backend/Frontend to Application/UI Developers

#59
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an aside about CRUD apps. I've been kicking around the idea of building and selling a universal CRUD app. Do you think there would be a market for that? How would I sell it?

Hhhhhmmmm... I would develop it in an interesting language from Japan...

Sorry, I don't follow.

Re: A Proposal: Renaming Backend/Frontend to Application/UI Developers

#60
post #56

What about the terms "Markup Designer" and "Software Developer"? These would seem to fit the bill perfectly.

What he describes in the article as a UI Developer is much more than markup, it frequently has javascript flavor for interaction with the user.

Also, interfaces are designed in Markup for the time being only, not as a rule for eternity.

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