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Nerds, we need to have a talk (2011)

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Re: Nerds, we need to have a talk (2011)

#51
post #28

This post is extremely stupid. What is this, the first grade? If you can't take honest criticism, you suck. If you think computer technology is full of mean people, try working in finance. My peers don't hesitate to give me honest criticism and that's one of the things I like most about CS. Maybe you should start your own company called "we should be super nice to each other all the time" and have your product be an…

Can't we give honest feedback without going into an epic fit of nerd rage over it?

Besides, the worst fights I see among programmers are over trivial matters of opinion anyway. Ever seen people fight over indentation styles, or the proper way to merge upstream changes into a local git repository, or whether functional or object-oriented programming is the One True Way?

The anger in these debates isn't teaching anyone a damn thing, except that the color of someone else's bike shed is really, really important to some people.

Re: Nerds, we need to have a talk (2011)

#53

Seriously, America is going to drown in shoulder-patting and hooray cheering. This taboo on negative opinions is ridiculous. We're teaching entire generations that we cannot fail as long as we try hard enough, and that it's the attempt that counts. Seriously, screw that. It is a vital skill to be able to filter through feedback, take the useful parts to heart, and shrug about low, nasty, useless comments. To learn fr…

> I'd prefer honest (and sometimes nasty) feedback over a culture of non-stop shoulder patting.

No one is suggesting a never ending hug fest of positive comments. But criticism should be constructive. You might not care that all feedback is on the level of idiotic YouTube comments, but that's a toxic environment and it's causing harm to the Internet. A bunch of projects would have more volunteers if they weren't such hateful environments.

Re: Nerds, we need to have a talk (2011)

#54
First of all, I don't think constructive criticism and frank incivility belong in the same bucket. One is a good thing about us. The other is a negative.

However, if we want to restore our tribal integrity, we can't let management play us against each other so easily. There are so many conflicts that look technical but are actually cases where management deliberately played tech people against each other (usually, to create a sense of competition on work hours, dedication, et al). Most engineers lack the social skills to perceive when this is happening.

One thing about business people: they constantly talk each other up. Even if they don't like each other, they say good things about one another. It's game theory. They know the difference between luke-warm and real praise, but everyone else thinks The Manager is in good standing (and therefore stays in line). They get themselves to a state where not saying something positive about someone is a damnation. They can dog-whistle by criticizing a member of their tribe within it, but in a way that outsiders don't recognize, allowing them to keep a unified front.

On our over-honesty, there's one case I know about where an engineer was leapfrog promoted to top management and had a lot of non-engineering reports. They had a performance review system where 5 (out of 9) was nominally average, but everyone came in between 7.5 and 9.0. He gave a lot of 6's and 7's thinking he was giving honest ratings (because no one looked at the perf numbers for IT, reviews he'd written in the past had no effect) but it ended up making a huge mess when HR wanted to put two-thirds of his team on PIPs. He reacted by changing everyone's rating to a 9.0 and giving honest feedback verbally, which is how it should be done.

I feel like we need a similar "understanding" with each other. To other engineers and technologists, we give blunt and honest feedback. But we need to stop the cannibalism. To management and HR, we take a strict attitude of praising other engineers (whether we think they deserve it or not). We should never narc each other out.

Re: Nerds, we need to have a talk (2011)

#55
post #28

This post is extremely stupid. What is this, the first grade? If you can't take honest criticism, you suck. If you think computer technology is full of mean people, try working in finance. My peers don't hesitate to give me honest criticism and that's one of the things I like most about CS. Maybe you should start your own company called "we should be super nice to each other all the time" and have your product be an…

Can't we give honest feedback without going into an epic fit of nerd rage over it? Besides, the worst fights I see among programmers are over trivial matters of opinion anyway. Ever seen people fight over indentation styles, or the proper way to merge upstream changes into a local git repository, or whether functional or object-oriented programming is the One True Way? The anger in these debates isn't teaching anyone…

Honest feedback:

1) "I really didn't like the way you did X. It broke Y on my browser, $Browser."

2) "Oh god, why did you chose to do this like this? It's broken and stupid"

I hope that people don't nerd rage after (1). I guess they might, and if they do that's a problem.

Re: Nerds, we need to have a talk (2011)

#56
I agree with the premise of not being gratuitously nasty. But I wish he hadn't made it sound like all programming is as consequence-free as skateboarding.

If you're programming as a hobby, it doesn't affect anyone but yourself. I totally support your using Arduinos until you figure out you can build one yourself in 5 minutes on a breadboard.

If you're programming professionally, the rules change. It's not all about supporting your personal learning experience. If you use simple hashing instead of bcrypt, and you have real users, you are potentially hurting people. It is literally true that if you don't know better than that, you should not programming a computer (well, programming an authentication system, anyway).

So yeah, don't be nasty. But also don't think your self-esteem is more important than doing a good job.

Re: Nerds, we need to have a talk (2011)

#57
I think the hacker community, just like any creative community, suffers from a bit too much evangelism and misdirected nerd rage. It's important that we understand our common goals and keep those in mind as we interact with each other. What are these goals?

For me... - learning how to solve real-world problems using software - sharing ideas and reflecting my perspective in the conversation - understanding how others think about SW topics, more learning - criticizing decisions in order to improve my critical thinking skills and knowledge - getting feedback from my own ideas to see how well they stand up

I realize that some of these are somewhat redundant, but I feel they differ in nuance. In general it is about _improvement_.

Also, some people are just way too sensitive and need to realize that an attack on one's idea is not an attack on oneself. I have general respect for all people, but I might think your idea is stupid.

The best thing we can do is make sure we do our best to absorb hostility and respond with objectivity.

Re: Nerds, we need to have a talk (2011)

#58

First of all, I don't think constructive criticism and frank incivility belong in the same bucket. One is a good thing about us. The other is a negative. However, if we want to restore our tribal integrity, we can't let management play us against each other so easily. There are so many conflicts that look technical but are actually cases where management deliberately played tech people against each other (usually, to…

I'd consider it only a workaround.

Re: Nerds, we need to have a talk (2011)

#59

First of all, I don't think constructive criticism and frank incivility belong in the same bucket. One is a good thing about us. The other is a negative. However, if we want to restore our tribal integrity, we can't let management play us against each other so easily. There are so many conflicts that look technical but are actually cases where management deliberately played tech people against each other (usually, to…

Yeah, this is really an extension of "praise in public, criticize in private," which is one of the golden rules of good management. Non-tech management understands this concept better than tech management, perhaps.

Re: Nerds, we need to have a talk (2011)

#60
post #59

First of all, I don't think constructive criticism and frank incivility belong in the same bucket. One is a good thing about us. The other is a negative. However, if we want to restore our tribal integrity, we can't let management play us against each other so easily. There are so many conflicts that look technical but are actually cases where management deliberately played tech people against each other (usually, to…

Yeah, this is really an extension of "praise in public, criticize in private," which is one of the golden rules of good management. Non-tech management understands this concept better than tech management, perhaps.

Tech people really suck at negotiation and that doesn't stop when they become managers. Which means that they don't realize that "You need to be hard on your reports" is a test and not a directive.

When the boss^2 (who does understand negotiation and human dynamics) says "You need to be tougher on your reports", saying "Yes, sir" means you fail the test. If you're not standing up for your reports and selling their efforts with highest praise, then they probably aren't loyal to you, either.

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