Why isn’t there a glut of good software engineers? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why isn’t there a glut of good software engineers?

#51

Post by acchow » Wed, May 01, 2013, 5:54 PM UTC

beeffective wrote: post #7

Why doesn't the pay reflect the supply and demand? I consider myself a decent developer with 9 years of industry experience in several domains and my salary is only $88k. It sounds like based on the demand, I should be pulling in a lot more.

We have no way to gauge your skill. But I'm wondering: why do you think $88k does not reflect supply and demand.

There have been a number of articles pointing out the "myth" of the tech talent shortage. Perhaps the shortage really only exists for "top talent"

Re: Why isn’t there a glut of good software engineers?

#52

Post by npsimons » Wed, May 01, 2013, 5:54 PM UTC

redblacktree wrote: post #41

raverbashing wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a waiter at a tourist restaurant is pretty much an 'on/off' occupation. You need a small amount of specific knowledge to start working (at a specific place), and leaving the job takes almost no knowledge away. Software development is a very slow start, depending on the project. Just try and see how long until a developer has the development environment. Yes, it should be a 'turn key' solution but that's often n…

Check out vagrant[1]. I can have a new developer set up in about 30-60 minutes. [1] http://www.vagrantup.com/

I don't think the GP was referring to development environment setup time as a significant amount of the spin-up time of a software engineer. If it is, you've got bigger issues.

Re: Why isn’t there a glut of good software engineers?

#53

Post by bradleyland » Wed, May 01, 2013, 5:54 PM UTC

There is a tremendous difference between being able to "program" (the ability to type out syntax that will execute) and being able to design large, complex systems. Stop and think for a moment about the complexity in interaction between components in a modestly complex software product. I know plenty of people who can write code competently, but cannot design software very well.

Re: Why isn’t there a glut of good software engineers?

#54

Post by rayiner » Wed, May 01, 2013, 5:55 PM UTC

1) I'd imagine programming ability is fairly correlated with IQ, which puts a limit on the percentage of the population that has the requisite analytical skills to be effective programmers.

2) Programming is as much about communication as it is about writing code. People have this idea that you can reduce a program to a precise set of specifications that can be formulated by non-programmers and shipped off to China to be coded up. I find the idea ridiculous. People don't come with to lawyers with the precise contours of the case they want to build and simply ask for the lawyer to write up the briefs. They don't come up to doctors with a precise treatment plan and simply ask them to administer the medications. Programmers are problem-solvers, and that's a two-way street, and that makes shipping critical programming work over to China and India untenable because of communications barriers.

Re: Why isn’t there a glut of good software engineers?

#55

Post by jshen » Wed, May 01, 2013, 5:56 PM UTC

diego wrote: post #28

For the same reason there isn't a glut of NBA players. Anyone can play, few people can become good enough. Next question. Edit: disagree? Downvote if you want, but please counterpoint.

The NBA has a fixed number of players. The analogy doesn't fit at all. I'll bet if you made 10 new teams, and only allowed them to sign players that other teams don't want, that a number of them would be better than the worst teams in the NBA right now.

Re: Why isn’t there a glut of good software engineers?

#56

Post by paulbaumgart » Wed, May 01, 2013, 5:56 PM UTC

ap22213 wrote: post #43

I think there may be a glut of potentially good software engineers. In fact, I know several high-IQ programmers who are skilled, but sadly, probably unemployable. I think the problem seems to be (at least) four-fold. 1. They don't have the prerequisite cultural background. 2. They are self-motivated to pursue their own creativity but less interested in others'. 3. They don't have a fondness for excess money. 4. They…

There is absolutely a market for really good creative people who aren't obedient or subordinate. You have to be able to back up your disobedience with results, though.

Re: Why isn’t there a glut of good software engineers?

#57

Post by jh73 » Wed, May 01, 2013, 5:58 PM UTC

willholloway wrote: post #21

The author of this would have his answer if he understood the IQ floor necessary to be a good engineer, access to computers at a young age and willingness to troubleshoot obscure problems is relatively rare in the population. There are far less high IQ individuals in the world than the world needs right now. We can teach coding to young people, but as of now we can't reliably increase IQ. We have studies that prove a…

As a scientist, even mentioning IQ is a good way to lose your career in the US. It's frustrating because the general population are turning to off-label drugs and supplements. 30% of college students are taking some sort of ADHD drugs for performance enhancement and even more when including nootropics.

Re: Why isn’t there a glut of good software engineers?

#58

Post by TheCoelacanth » Wed, May 01, 2013, 5:58 PM UTC

yourapostasy wrote: post #20

tempi35 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why programming isn't a commodity skill? Or will become such commodity soon? Programming is like a house builder. Yes there are better and more experienced builders, but most of them can build a house top to bottom with no problem.

> ...with no problem. For certain values of "problem" as defined by the builder? Sure. For what a buyer defines as a "problem"? Highly debatable. Even in house construction, an activity that has been performed for literally THOUSANDS OF YEARS, there is no commoditization. If nothing else accounts for this, the bewildering array of local building codes assures that commodity construction as presented by a builder (lik…

And if you expand it beyond just house construction to all construction, which is probably a better comparison, it's even less of a commodity. Cost and time overruns are common in multi-million dollar building projects, just like they are in multi-million dollar software projects.

Re: Why isn’t there a glut of good software engineers?

#59

Post by koko775 » Wed, May 01, 2013, 6:00 PM UTC

willholloway wrote: post #21

The author of this would have his answer if he understood the IQ floor necessary to be a good engineer, access to computers at a young age and willingness to troubleshoot obscure problems is relatively rare in the population. There are far less high IQ individuals in the world than the world needs right now. We can teach coding to young people, but as of now we can't reliably increase IQ. We have studies that prove a…

I'm going to directly contradict you here and say that IQ increases reliably: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect - IQ is a relative measure that is adjusted periodically. I also don't think that IQ is a direct mapping to programming skill.

I also find the suggestion that there aren't enough smart people to be able to do programming highly questionable. There are far more people who are capable but not able to pursue programming than there are people are who are not "fit" mentally.

Re: Why isn’t there a glut of good software engineers?

#60

Post by numo16 » Wed, May 01, 2013, 6:01 PM UTC

solistice wrote: post #29

sehugg wrote: post #11

by now most of the world’s programming would be happening in low-to-medium-wage countries and that customers wouldn’t have to pay a lot for high quality software. But it hasn’t happened (e.g., see my posting about California’s state government spending $327 million on a straightforward ecommerce site Uh, the reasons government IT projects are typically huge wasteful boondoggles are not because programmer salaries are…

I was puzzeled over that number too, as putting up a site like that, even if you are buying the servers from scratch and hire a first rate web dev, shouldn't cost more than 10-20k$. I went through to the linked artice, and appeareantly, most of it went for consultants. I mean there are consultants out there that are worth their money, and I bet the site is kai-zen optimized very nicely, even though I can't tell, but…

> The main problem seems to be that government contracting is not a regular market

I have to wonder if it would be come a more regular market if companies weren't required to drug-test all of their employees in order to do more than $100,000 of Federal contract work [1]. I'm sure their are companies out there that would prefer not to compromise their employees' privacy for the sake of work they might not need.

[1]: http://www.nfib.com/business-resources/business-resources-it...