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French President announces pro-business measures

rudebaguette.com

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Re: French President announces pro-business measures

#51

Post by philjeudy »

xsace wrote: post #34
babarock wrote: post #15

To me, the most important thing is that he's closing the "040" indicator used by the banks to index the entrepreneurs who previously failed. It's virtually impossible to get help from a bank if your previous startup has failed. There's a bigger picture here. France is so incredibly intolerant of failure it's not funny. There's the rampant myth of the "genius superstar that never fails" and you only get one chance to…

You sum up everything. If you fear the failure, you can't be successful. That's a french mentality issue (I'm french) French people need to understand the learn from your failures concept

I'm French too and I totally disagree with this comment. We should stop old style cliché and be fair a bit. Things are changing there obviously.

Re: French President announces pro-business measures

#52

Post by fab13n »

wisty wrote: post #47
LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #10

75% tax rate. He is a sociallist big time. He hates free market economy. Now confronting public outrage he puts some lipstick on a pig and it still doesn't look good as he doesn't get the markets. 75% tax rate, who is he kidding? Who wants to work for free for years on their startup and sacrifice their savings, their social life, sometimes their family, just to be hit by 75% tax at the end of the journey? No thank yo…

75% marginal on income over 1 million. So if you make 2 million, you probably only make, like 750,000 for yourself (which isn't too bad) - if your tax accountant is useless. And if you fail, you have a safety net.

Only on _salaries_ of over a million. Except for soccer superstars, nobody makes more than a million _in salary_.

He promised it for populist reasons, but never wanted to do it; so he does it in such a way that it affects virtually nobody.

It has a nasty effect, though: it reinforces the idea that wanting to become rich is somewhat antisocial in France, and ought to be punished. A 75% tax is what you levy on vice: oil, tobacco, alcohol or lottery. This is insulting and discouraging to entrepreneurs, many of whom crave social recognition at least as much as wealth.

Re: French President announces pro-business measures

#53

Post by LekkoscPiwa »

stygianguest wrote: post #20
LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #10

75% tax rate. He is a sociallist big time. He hates free market economy. Now confronting public outrage he puts some lipstick on a pig and it still doesn't look good as he doesn't get the markets. 75% tax rate, who is he kidding? Who wants to work for free for years on their startup and sacrifice their savings, their social life, sometimes their family, just to be hit by 75% tax at the end of the journey? No thank yo…

Of course that only applies to the salary over one million. As people earning that much usually have plenty of options to get their money through different channels, this is purely political posturing. They didn't even significantly increase tax revenue. I agree that it is ridiculous but, in a similar way, it is ridiculous to claim that one rate makes France unfriendly for business.

> Of course that only applies to the salary over one million.

Of course! So have a look at me: worked 8 years in IT and saved about 150,000 USD in that time period. I paid taxes on this, mind you. To save this amount I had to live on much lower standard of living that my peers. My wife and my kid too. I quit the job, I'm trying to run a startup. I have a child, a wife and expenses related to that. Instead of getting regular income as everybody else, I spend my savings (accumulated capital) to try create something of value for the public. I take risks. My family does too. We live on 40000 dollars a year or less. Because I'm putting everything into this business. 2 years and 80000 so far plus income I lost by not working in 8-5 job in these 2 years.

Let's say it works out. I sell the business after 3 years for 1,000,000 dollars. You are telling me that it is fine to take 750,000 from me and from my family? For all the risks I took? For all the hard work? For years of living below standard my family could have afforded but decided to take risk and save, and invest? So, you would like to see me with just 1/4 of this? And give 3/4 to people who didn't take any risks, didn't save, are living comfortably (better than me!)

I don't think you understand. France is history.

Re: French President announces pro-business measures

#54

Post by waxzce »

So sorry about some French habits : many of bad comments are made by French... In fact, some French guy like French bashing, in public international place, but it doesn't sounds good for business isn't it ?

We have also great entrepreneur with great exits or great companies. And some of us are business ready and don't complain all the time. Such a shame nobody ear of them...

Re: French President announces pro-business measures

#56

Post by eru »

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #53
stygianguest wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course that only applies to the salary over one million. As people earning that much usually have plenty of options to get their money through different channels, this is purely political posturing. They didn't even significantly increase tax revenue. I agree that it is ridiculous but, in a similar way, it is ridiculous to claim that one rate makes France unfriendly for business.

> Of course that only applies to the salary over one million. Of course! So have a look at me: worked 8 years in IT and saved about 150,000 USD in that time period. I paid taxes on this, mind you. To save this amount I had to live on much lower standard of living that my peers. My wife and my kid too. I quit the job, I'm trying to run a startup. I have a child, a wife and expenses related to that. Instead of getting…

> I sell the business after 3 years for 1,000,000 dollars. [...]

I don't know about French taxation, but I don't think the sale of the business would be taxed as a million dollars of income.

Re: French President announces pro-business measures

#57

Post by rguillebert »

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #53
stygianguest wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course that only applies to the salary over one million. As people earning that much usually have plenty of options to get their money through different channels, this is purely political posturing. They didn't even significantly increase tax revenue. I agree that it is ridiculous but, in a similar way, it is ridiculous to claim that one rate makes France unfriendly for business.

> Of course that only applies to the salary over one million. Of course! So have a look at me: worked 8 years in IT and saved about 150,000 USD in that time period. I paid taxes on this, mind you. To save this amount I had to live on much lower standard of living that my peers. My wife and my kid too. I quit the job, I'm trying to run a startup. I have a child, a wife and expenses related to that. Instead of getting…

The 75% tax only applies to salaries not if you sell your business and it's a marginal tax rate, if you earn 1,000,000 euros it doesn't apply to you.

Re: French President announces pro-business measures

#58

Post by subsystem »

davidw wrote: post #38
edouard1234567 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but that's probably not the right forum for politics...

Exactly - consider flagging the article.

The article seems highly relevant regardsless if people can stay on topic.

Re: French President announces pro-business measures

#59

Post by watsonc73 »

MetaCosm wrote: post #43
babarock wrote: post #15

To me, the most important thing is that he's closing the "040" indicator used by the banks to index the entrepreneurs who previously failed. It's virtually impossible to get help from a bank if your previous startup has failed. There's a bigger picture here. France is so incredibly intolerant of failure it's not funny. There's the rampant myth of the "genius superstar that never fails" and you only get one chance to…

In the US -- we look at some of our most successful businesses and a ton of them had bankrupt companies in their past... Ford (cars), Disney (media), Lincoln (president), Heinz (condiments), Hershey (candy), Twain (author), Fox (media) -- tons of others...

Great point - Unfortunately, it's endemic in European society that bankruptcy should be labelled as a permanent branding of failure for an entrepreneur. Until this year in Ireland, an adjudicated bankrupt could not apply for €630 credit without disclosing his status as a bankrupt (which could last for up to 12 years!)

I'd bet that the countries with the lowest barriers to exiting bankruptcy (eg 6 months in the US) also have the highest start-up success rates.

Bankruptcy laws are inversely proportionate to an innovative start-up ecosystem.

Getting rid of the '040' label is definitely a step in the right direction and I'm delighted to see that Hollande recognizes how important it is to remove this stigma.

On a side note, Liam Boogar, the editor of the Rude Baguette (source of this article) is an absolute gentleman who works tirelessly to better the fate of French start-ups. Keep up the great work!

Re: French President announces pro-business measures

#60

Post by lke »

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #53
stygianguest wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course that only applies to the salary over one million. As people earning that much usually have plenty of options to get their money through different channels, this is purely political posturing. They didn't even significantly increase tax revenue. I agree that it is ridiculous but, in a similar way, it is ridiculous to claim that one rate makes France unfriendly for business.

> Of course that only applies to the salary over one million. Of course! So have a look at me: worked 8 years in IT and saved about 150,000 USD in that time period. I paid taxes on this, mind you. To save this amount I had to live on much lower standard of living that my peers. My wife and my kid too. I quit the job, I'm trying to run a startup. I have a child, a wife and expenses related to that. Instead of getting…

What don't you understand in "over one million" ?

If you sell it for 1,000,001 the 75% rate only applies to the extra 1. Not the whole 1,000,001 just the 1 that is over the million.

That's what is called a marginal taxe rate. Each tax braket only applies to the money within the backet range.

If you make 1,000,001 the first 6,000 are not taxed and the last one is taxed at 75%. (Or will be if we ever get that).

--

Edit : There also seems to be a concensus about selling not being taxed like a salary. I wouldn't know. But there was also quite a debate on whether the taxes on selling companies was to high.

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