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Turns out Hiring a Woman is Discriminatory

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Re: Turns out Hiring a Woman is Discriminatory

#51

The original process the OP describes is exactly what many affirmative action opponents think AA does, that is only consider one demographic and ignore all the others. If you want to open opportunities for women, you post the job notice in places where women will see it. That will get you qualified candidates, and if you find a women who is the best person for the job, you hire her. edit: spelling

Wow, so easy! Why do we worry about these things when every case is so cut and dried?

Because it's not. What if it's between two applicants, a male and a female, who are more or less equally qualified? Also, in case you haven't realized, there isn't an abundance of graphic designers looking for work in predominantly female areas. It's actually rather difficult to hire a good graphic designer who's not looking to telecommute, regardless of gender, much less hire one with specific skill tendencies.

Re: Turns out Hiring a Woman is Discriminatory

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>increase the number of female applicants and go from there. As it turns out, that's a lot easier said than done.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Hiring_discrimination#Sol...

@apawloski, you're right, it is easier said than done, as most things are.

the "solutions" section on the above link is particularly helpful with specifics.

Re: Turns out Hiring a Woman is Discriminatory

#53

I always see these arguments as very very myopic. If I need a developer, then I hire a developer. I am very much discriminating against accountants, because they don't fit the qualifications that I am looking for. But no intelligent person would ever frame it that way. If you're a 10 to 1 ratio, then you need to diversify, and you would discriminate against men the same way you discriminate against accountants. The e…

It's not illegal to discriminate against accountants. It is illegal to discriminate against someone because of their gender.

Re: Turns out Hiring a Woman is Discriminatory

#54
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what the article title says.

It's difficult to make a meaningful contribution here if you only read title of the article we're talking about.

The title is the most important bit.

It is, as you note, the only bit people who don't read the article will read. (And as it happens, I did read it, but don't let that stop you from jumping to conclusions.) That includes people who don't click through from the HN front page, but the message will lodge in their brains regardless.

It is also, presumably, what the author feels is a good one sentence summary of the article: he cannot hire women, because it is illegal... so he has no choice but to hire men only from now on (subtext: stop blaming him for the 15-1 gender imbalance at his company, nothing to do with him, honest).

Another way of putting this: if the author knows full well that it is NOT discriminatory to employ women, why did he lie to us in the article's most prominent sentence?

Re: Turns out Hiring a Woman is Discriminatory

#55
Discriminate. If you have five candidates, all qualified, with marginal differences, take the one that has been historically discriminated against.

That is the only way to build a culture (industry-wide) where there is a diverse group of people making hiring decisions. Once that happens, diverse bigotries will tend to cancel each other out, and the lack of a visible glass ceiling in the profession will encourage more people to try to join it from discriminated against groups.

Marginal discrimination by feel and intuition is mostly voodoo anyway. Thinking Person X is the best person for the job because he worked on a project at Company Y that you thought was interesting isn't necessarily picking the best person for the job (unless the project is directly applicable to what you're hiring them for), but it is necessarily compounding any prejudicial hiring practices from Company Y that may or may not exist there. In addition, at the margins is when people are chosen because they went to the same school as you, or they share your hobbies.

Have a qualification line, and above that line, pick the most historically disadvantaged. If you're still not getting any diversity, examine your qualification line (have I only considered people who went to private universities?) or market your interest, as this blog does well:)

Re: Turns out Hiring a Woman is Discriminatory

#56
I get that people like this have noble intentions. But this obsession with hiring women... it's gotten out of hand. You see an imbalance of one sub-group of people in your field and you want to fix it. But you don't understand what the problem is.

The problem is that women aren't getting paid enough. The problem is that women get treated with less respect, or are given busy-work, aren't given the same opportunities. The problem is sexual harassment. The problem is a lack of sensitivity. The problem is the boys' club. Etc, etc, etc.

NONE of those problems get solved because you hired a woman. Once they get the job, they still face all of the same hurdles the rest of their career, because you didn't do anything to fix the cultural disparity which is (one of the) reasons why there aren't more women in the field to begin with.

I mean... do you seriously think that the only reason there aren't more women in tech is because nobody offered them the job? There is no secret nation-wide cabal of hiring managers excluding women from positions. They're just not applying. Dealing with the reasons for that would be a lot more productive than wandering around college campuses with a quadrocopter looking for girls.

Re: Turns out Hiring a Woman is Discriminatory

#57
post #7

The problem is that this is discriminatory. If you are not hiring based solely on qualifications, and instead on gender, it is discriminating. If you were to switch the genders and say that you are only hiring men, it would be clearly sexist. However, if you do not accept well qualified men who would fit the job, it is seen as "breaking gender barriers". You should be hiring based on the applicant's experience, educa…

> You should be hiring based on the applicant's experience, education

I find it concerning that we so easily discount this discrimination. Someone who is equally capable of doing the job with less experience and education should have an equal chance at the job, no?

Now, perhaps someone with more experience is statistically better for the job, so you might want to look for that, but what if men are statically better for the job? I don't think it is right to say one is discrimination and the other is not. In both cases you are making prejudicial judgements about people through categorization.

At some point practicality takes over and you have to make judgements about people without knowing who they really are, but its not clear to me why the varying levels of treatment are happening.

Re: Turns out Hiring a Woman is Discriminatory

#58
post #42
post #31

Wanting to increase diversity is a good thing, so kudos for that. However you should -never- -ever- -ever- indicate a preference towards a race, gender, sexual orientation or religious affiliation. Did I say ever? Ever. Ever. Ever. It's discriminatory, it's demeaning and it's illegal. If you want to increase diversity then, well, don't just say 'I need women!', rather go to where the diversity is. There are a ton of…

But how is that not discrimination masked in sheep's clothing? At least be forward with what your looking for, why should a male apply for a position that he wants, fits PERFECTLY but only get rejected because the company was veiling it's intentions to hire a woman? In my opinion, being female is equivalent to a skill—sure a hard coded skill, but a skill none-the-less. When you need to connect with a particular audie…

Because there is a difference between making decisions based on gender, race, age, religion, etc... and making decisions based on the ability of the applicant to perform their duties. If your goal is to add someone to your team with skills that you believe are likely to be easier to find in a woman, you are not permitted to disregard men - just as if you are looking to hire someone to do heavy physical labor, you are not permitted to disregard women.

That doesn't mean you can't consider those differences in skills. If you don't interview a more qualified man who possesses those skills (and it seems extremely unlikely in this case that you will) then you don't need to feel bad not hiring one.

If you are hiring for a warehouse position where the only skills required are the ability to lift as much weight as high as possible and you receive a female applicant who has a PhD from Harvard and can't lift 25 lbs, choosing instead to hire a man who can do significantly more labor would be a good decision, not discriminatory. Likewise, if you believe that there are actual skills that you are attempting to hire for that favor women, that's not discriminatory.

> At least be forward with what you're looking for, why should a male apply for a position that he wants, fits PERFECTLY but only get rejected because the company was veiling it's intentions to hire a woman?

I agree that this would be a mistake. The difference comes in how good the fit is. If you are looking for something specific that the man is unable to provide, then it's not a perfect fit.

Re: Turns out Hiring a Woman is Discriminatory

#59

I think most people got this topic wrong, maybe because of all the promotion of women in IT, which mostly is good. If I was a woman, I'd rather apply for someone looking for a developer, than someone looking for a woman - because then I knew I was hired because of my skills and personality - not my gender. In legal terms, this is pretty much what you can do. You can hire a "person" not a person of a specific gender.

The issue is wanting a diverse work force. They want the benefits that a diverse work force can provide, and that includes adding women to the team [1]. So how do they hire for that without discriminating? I think it's a fair question, and one that shouldn't be ignored out of some perceived bias. 1. http://www.ncwit.org/ncwit-fact-sheet

You can want a diverse work force all you like but you aren't entitled to one. It's really quite simple, in America an employer doesn't get to pick the gender of his employees. Not to make it all one gender, not for diversity, not to have an exact 50-50 ratio, not to have all the typists be women and all the filers be men or vice versa.

In other words, you don't get to "add women to the team" because it's not your decision to make. If you're worried that your hiring process is biased against women, you're allowed to bend over backwards to make your job offers accessible to them, and go out of your way to make sure your workplace is not intolerable to whatever women work there already.

Re: Turns out Hiring a Woman is Discriminatory

#60
post #50

I always see these arguments as very very myopic. If I need a developer, then I hire a developer. I am very much discriminating against accountants, because they don't fit the qualifications that I am looking for. But no intelligent person would ever frame it that way. If you're a 10 to 1 ratio, then you need to diversify, and you would discriminate against men the same way you discriminate against accountants. The e…

That's not how it works. An accountant will not have the qualification to get the job done and that's why you are not considering them, it's not discrimination. Discrimination is when you ignore someone or treat them differently based on an attribute that is seemingly non-relevant to what is required to get the job done. Gender, race, religion is often one of those attributes. There may be cases where one of the abov…

The job the person is applying for is an engineer and workplace diversify-er. How does the white male accomplish the second criteria?
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