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India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

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Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#51

Post by rm999 »

jimrandomh wrote: post #32
ashray wrote: post #6

Ooh, no comments, I'll bite. The last time I said something negative about Indian society I had my personal details thrown all over HN. Wonder what's going to happen this time. So here's the thing. This article is pretty spot on. We, the privileged of India, do indeed feel entitled. There's absolutely no doubt about that. My theory is that the population pressure in India is so very high that you're always fighting f…

> You know what these people call themselves? Middle class. They refuse to acknowledge that they are wealthy. No, they've got it right. The distinction between middle class and lower class is entirely about wealth, but the distinction between middle class and upper class is not. Wealth is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for being upper class; the distinguishing features are flexibility and power, not money.…

In India being upper middle class can provide you with a lifestyle (and I think therefore mentality) that resembles upperclass in the West because of cheap labor and weak labor laws. I know doctors in India who have live-in servants, chefs, drivers, etc.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#52

Post by Camillo »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #10

This is not elite entitlement. This is right wing entitlement. The recent death of Maggie reminded me of what she really changed - she made it ok to be selfish and disdainful of "undeserving" poor. India was a hybridised socialist country for a very long time - coming out of that will look at lot like Britain the in the eighties I suspect - and if you want to put bets on the next two term incumbent - they will look a…

There's plenty of right-wing people in the middle and lower classes.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#53

Post by nbouscal »

16s wrote: post #45
knodi wrote: post #25

I have seen this kind of behavior going on in India for so many years. There are countless cases of where rich people would push poor people on bikes off the road and into ditches with their cars. I'm convinced that this stems from the religious caste system which has now become the monetary class system in these new times. I always wondered why don't the poor just revolt, they're treated so badly, almost like slaves…

There are countless cases of where rich people would push poor people on bikes off the road and into ditches with their cars. That would be a serious crime in the USA. If you did that, and you got caught, you would be in very serious trouble. And, it would not matter how rich you were. That's assault, perhaps with intent to harm or kill and civilized society does not tolerate it.

> it would not matter how rich you were.

Which USA do you live in?

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#54

Post by hypertexthero »

Questioner: What do you think of Indians?

Krishnamurti: That is really an innocent question, is it not? To see facts without opinion is one thing, but to have opinions about facts is totally another. It is one thing just to see the fact that a whole people are caught in superstition, but quite another to see that fact and condemn it. Opinions are not important, because I will have one opinion, you will have another, and a third person will have still another. To be concerned with opinions is a stupid form of thinking. What is important is to see facts as they are without opinion, without judging, without comparing.

To feel beauty without opinion is the only real perception of beauty. Similarly, if you can see the people of India just as they are, see them very clearly without fixed opinions, without judging, then what you see will be real.

The Indians have certain manners, certain customs of their own, but fundamentally they are like any other people. They get bored, they are cruel, they are afraid, they revolt within the prison of society, just as people do everywhere else. Like the Americans, they also want comfort, only at present they do not have it to the same extent. They have a heavy tradition about renouncing the world and trying to be saintly; but they also have deep-rooted ambitions, hypocrisy, greed, envy, and they are broken up by castes, as human beings are everywhere else, only here it is much more brutal. Here in India you can see more closely the whole phenomenon of what is happening in the world. We want to be loved, but we don't know what love is; we are unhappy, thirsting for something real, and we turn to books, to the Upanishads, the Gita, or the Bible, so we get lost in words, in speculations. Whether it is here, or in Russia, or in America, the human mind is similar, only it expresses itself in different ways under different skies and different governments.

— From Think on These Things (also published as This Matter of Culture) by Jiddu Krishnamurti, Chapter 11 - Conformity and Revolt. - http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/think-on-these-things/1...

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#55

Post by cellis »

nbouscal wrote: post #53
16s wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are countless cases of where rich people would push poor people on bikes off the road and into ditches with their cars. That would be a serious crime in the USA. If you did that, and you got caught, you would be in very serious trouble. And, it would not matter how rich you were. That's assault, perhaps with intent to harm or kill and civilized society does not tolerate it.

> it would not matter how rich you were. Which USA do you live in?

A valid question. I don't think someone would be able to get away with that in my USA (SF bay area) irrespective of wealth. But perhaps in a more provincial part, like, say Alabama...

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#56

Post by redcircle »

jimrandomh wrote: post #32
ashray wrote: post #6

Ooh, no comments, I'll bite. The last time I said something negative about Indian society I had my personal details thrown all over HN. Wonder what's going to happen this time. So here's the thing. This article is pretty spot on. We, the privileged of India, do indeed feel entitled. There's absolutely no doubt about that. My theory is that the population pressure in India is so very high that you're always fighting f…

> You know what these people call themselves? Middle class. They refuse to acknowledge that they are wealthy. No, they've got it right. The distinction between middle class and lower class is entirely about wealth, but the distinction between middle class and upper class is not. Wealth is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for being upper class; the distinguishing features are flexibility and power, not money.…

I agree: upper class isn't about wealth. So much of it is about culture (in the sense that culture breeds character traits). And the ambition to obtain wealth in the middle class breeds character traits that impose a barrier for entering the upper class.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#57

Post by yarou »

PAULHANNA84 wrote: post #47

India has many wonderful things to offer but my biggest issue in that country would be the cast system. The untouchables! I think it's awful that any human is deemed less than human at the point of birth. Awful!

Actually, the caste system isn't that much of a problem anymore. Because of various affirmative action programs, many former Dalits have risen to high governmental posts and industry titans.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#58

Post by ashray »

legutierr wrote: post #49
ashray wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even 0.005% of the Indian populace can afford the things I mentioned as examples. Maybe the problem is that we take our cues of what is considered upper class from international standards and therefore fail to acknowledge our own privileges in a local context ?

I think that being middle class is not about representing any kind of median level of wealth in a population (or other relative measure), but rather has something to do with the kind of resources and income you have access to relative to human needs in an absolute sense. For example, if some, but not all (or even most), of your family members need to work in order to maintain a comfortable lifestyle (which includes h…

You're right. However, the difference in India lies in the fact that the lower-income people are .. middle class. Poor people in India are without any real income. Most of them struggle to get two meals a day. A lot of them live on under $2/day without access to food, shelter, sanitation or any type of medical facility.

The stark contrast between such a person and another that drives around in an air conditioned SUV is what often shocks people. By comparison, a western middle class person in India would be considered pretty well off! Unfortunately, the Indian upper middle class/upper class do not apply those standards to themselves.

There are some people commenting on this topic saying that SV millionaires are not upper class. That sounds ridiculous in India :)

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#59

Post by 16s »

nbouscal wrote: post #53
16s wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are countless cases of where rich people would push poor people on bikes off the road and into ditches with their cars. That would be a serious crime in the USA. If you did that, and you got caught, you would be in very serious trouble. And, it would not matter how rich you were. That's assault, perhaps with intent to harm or kill and civilized society does not tolerate it.

> it would not matter how rich you were. Which USA do you live in?

Every part of America I have ever been in would not tolerate that. It's illegal.

Re: India’s elites have a ferocious sense of entitlement

#60

Post by ryanmolden »

tusharc wrote: post #16

There is an implied causality in this article. Being rich -> Lose empathy. I'd be curious to know if there indeed is causality in either direction (Less empathetic people get richer) or is it just correlation masquerading as causality.

I have always been a strong believer in the saying "Fortune does not change men, it unmasks them". Studying this area would be difficult though as you either need to know ahead of time who would be successful, or study such a large cross-section that you are statistically likely to snare future successful people in your population.
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