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Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

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Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#51

Post by rdouble »

pbiggar wrote: post #49
trustfundbaby wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only common reason companies don't do H1Bs is the hassle, and even then it's not that big a deal for any funded or profitable company That was not my point though ... I was trying to say that while all this is being done for the worker, that worker is beholden to the company doing all this on their behalf. Which allows the company take liberties with their wages that they could never even dream off with an Amer…

> I was trying to say that while all this is being done for the worker, that worker is beholden to the company doing all this on their behalf. Not at all, because there are thousands of other companies will to do this too. Its a sellers market, and engineers can literally get a job with a week's notice (plus maybe 2 weeks to get the visa sorted out). > At your 6 year mark, where the green card has to be filed for you…

Most "body shop" employees are doing stuff that is irrelevant to employment at innovative Silicon Valley companies.

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#52

Post by davidw »

rayiner wrote: post #36
eurleif wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, just to be perfectly clear: you don't believe that people have any moral obligation not to murder each other. But they do have a moral obligation to follow contracts (the government's contract to do what the people want).

I don't believe in any super natural bases for morality,[1] so I believe that morality arises out of the social contract. Given that, it makes sense to talk about the moral obligations of individuals within a society to each other, but not to talk about one society's obligation to another. [1] Not just religion, but things like "natural rights" are really supernatural conceptually.

This is a repeat of the other day's conversation (and about 1343243243232 other similar conversations on the internet, which is why we ought to get rid of political articles), but like hell will I "not talk about my obligations" to other human beings that happen to be born with some other passport.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5533155

Edit: looks like someone is sinking these articles off the front page. Good call!

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#53

Post by [deleted] »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #38
[deleted] wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

> A no brainer to me would be that as the supply of something increases, the price goes down Sure, that is true, but this is a special case in which there is unmet demand and strict assessment and checks (the h1-b quota) to ensure that it doesn't adversely affect wages. If demand drops to zero then you adjust the quota accordingly that year (to use an extreme example) > you'd be increasing the supply of technology wo…

[deleted]

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#54

Post by unholyalliance »

What I don't get is that the law allows hiring foreign workers only if a qualified American worker could not be found, but I have never seen any evidence of this. Has anyone heard of a company being forced to prove this, or experienced an interview process where they prioritize American workers?

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#55

Post by ktsmith »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #43
pbiggar wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is with some of the foibles of the h1-b visa. H1B worker here. I think what you describe is actually completely offset by the strong demand for engineers. The cost of a H1B, which is as you say $5K or so (though its the same to transfer), is tiny in comparison to salaries, and also relative to recruiter fees (which can often be $30K). The only common reason companies don't do H1Bs is the hassle, and eve…

> The only common reason companies don't do H1Bs is the hassle, and even then it's not that big a deal for any funded or profitable company That was not my point though ... I was trying to say that while all this is being done for the worker, that worker is beholden to the company doing all this on their behalf. Which allows the company take liberties with their wages that they could never even dream off with an Amer…

> You are vulnerable, as it essentially makes it impossible for you to move for almost a year

180 days post application not a year.. This is well known and established, anyone applying for permanent residency should be well aware of this and should apply as soon as acceptable if they wish to stay in the US long term.

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#56

Post by unholyalliance »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #47
unholyalliance wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the Indians and Chinese that I went to school with were the sons and daughters of doctors, lawyers, and professors.

What makes you believe that Indian/Chinese doctors, lawyers and professors are not poor by US standards? You might be a "rich" corporate lawyer living in Bandra, but that doesn't mean you can afford a car, or more than 1 room/person for your family (most poor Americans have these things).

Well, what about having several house servants? Rich Americans don't have these things.

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#57

Post by rayiner »

davidw wrote: post #52
rayiner wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe in any super natural bases for morality,[1] so I believe that morality arises out of the social contract. Given that, it makes sense to talk about the moral obligations of individuals within a society to each other, but not to talk about one society's obligation to another. [1] Not just religion, but things like "natural rights" are really supernatural conceptually.

This is a repeat of the other day's conversation (and about 1343243243232 other similar conversations on the internet, which is why we ought to get rid of political articles), but like hell will I "not talk about my obligations" to other human beings that happen to be born with some other passport. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5533155 Edit: looks like someone is sinking these articles off the front page. Good…

What do you think is the basis for your obligations to humans that you don't share a government with?

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#58

Post by Pwnguinz »

rayiner wrote: post #7
luu wrote: post #2

There's a large body of work from economists in this area. My impression is that the answer seems to be that the effect on high-skill workers is positive, and the debate is over the magnitude of the positive effect. But, even putting that aside, it seems to me that it's hard to make either a practical or a moral case for restricting immigration of engineers more tightly than we do now. First, the practical case: when…

> If we let someone in from a poor country, we're increasing the income of someone who might be below the 50th percentile into the 99th percentile. It's awfully hard to make a case that we should be enriching the richest people in the world at the cost of the poorest. It's not hard to make that case at all. Indians and Chinese prospective immigrants are not part of the American body politic. The American government h…

> instituted to protect American interests and American prosperity

That makes intuitive sense. But in practice I'd argue it's much more nuanced than that. What we all legally and sovereignly call "The United States of America" are many distinct (and I don't just mean by State borders) populations with vastly different needs and are affected differently by global undertakings.

As a thought experiments, let's say bringing immigrants from Country Z lowers the wages of workers in Trade X in Alaska-America by 50%. However, this decreases the amount of production for Product H in Country Z by 25% due to migrating workers. This increases the wages of workers in Trade B in Florida-America by 200% due to the shortage of Product H. The net-gain here is Zero for The United States of America (assuming workers in Trade B and X are same in numbers, thereby cancelling each other's net loss/gains out).

Ought not the American government allow the immigrants on the basis that, overall, it is increasing the wealth of the world economy; the world of which the United States of America is very much a part of?

I suppose the argument can be made that fundamentally the government only cares about its own Prosperity even in this case, and that a "rising tide lifts all boats" scenario outlined above merely falls into that category.

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#59

Post by davidw »

So if someone wants some actual data on this, here's one thing that we could look at:

Openness to immigration (admittedly not the easiest statistic, but we should be able to find something that works) compared to local wages, corrected for GDP.

That should give us a way to compare relatively open countries with relatively closed countries, and see which ones have higher wages.

Re: Do Immigrant Engineers Depress Engineer Wages?

#60

Post by ktsmith »

rdouble wrote: post #51
pbiggar wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was trying to say that while all this is being done for the worker, that worker is beholden to the company doing all this on their behalf. Not at all, because there are thousands of other companies will to do this too. Its a sellers market, and engineers can literally get a job with a week's notice (plus maybe 2 weeks to get the visa sorted out). > At your 6 year mark, where the green card has to be filed for you…

Most "body shop" employees are doing stuff that is irrelevant to employment at innovative Silicon Valley companies.

I'd really like to see it changed so that consultancies are not eligible for H-1B visa application. This would eliminate the body shops pretty quickly.
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